Disruptive Frontline Gameplay

[Mawlzy]

While I don't disagree that BH isn't the best system, while the system is in place, you could actually try to get BH (or at least try to avoid losing it).

On the hand of course "why bother trying" takes no effort at all....

Good point, and a strong reason for keeping it. When you're being led by the nose by Olivia's premade as they each rack up ~ 80 assists, you have very little else to do that suggests agency.

[Aravell]

I'm more of the mind that BH isn't a bad system, it's merely outdated.

If they changed BH to remove the healing boost (so BH5 players heal 15000 through Recuperate like everyone else instead of 22500) and add a 8% damage taken increase per stack of BH (for a 40% damage taken increase at BH5), that would probably make BH less of an issue to deal with in the current form of PvP. If that's still too strong, maybe they lose all BH points when they die instead of just 50%.

[AriannaStormwake]

just dont allow premades to queue against pugs all i see is lb stacking stun chains and tryharding not real skill from those guys
only they get to have fun because pugs who cant fight back(due to drk/drg/ast+war grip lb chains and stuns) are easy kills/easy points and easy wins

i already got my 3 garo mounts and the wins for using a makai title and it was worth grinding the wins
but im sure those drk/drg guys who queue up and got a macro to raid lead groups to victory+salted earth macro already have those achievements/mounts?

or rather salted earth(salt and darkness bind aswell not just the pull) is the issue without a target cap

[OliviaLugria]

There is such a guide! Made by notorious shot-caller Olivia L. on Aether. Haven't read it for a while, but these are the salient features I recall.

How to win in FL:

1. Be a shot-caller. Various helpful macros are included.
2. Form a premade.
3. Various meta compositions are offered.
4. Tactics are suggested that inevitably involve fairly heavy casualties for those on your team not in the premade. Don't worry about that, they're not your friends anyway. The premade is so devastating they are simply collateral damage on the way to easy wins.

It's actually a really good guide, and I wish more FL players would read it because it corrects some common strategic misunderstandings. It's also deeply cynical IMO.

The problem is premades.

Thanks for name dropping me. I don't exactly agree with your 4th point there. Getting your team killed doesn't exactly seem point positive. Some premades can drop an entire alliance by themselves, but many need their team to also be building battle high and staying alive. I'm curious as to which tactics you were implying when writing the comment. I'd like to go back and edit my guide to ensure this is not the sentiment being spread.

I try my best to tell others to back up, fallback, don't get bursted by enemy darks, but sometimes I'm not or the team is not quick enough. People get left behind and have to be used as cover for an escape or be avenged in the counter burst.

[Mawlzy]

Thanks for name dropping me. I don't exactly agree with your 4th point there. Getting your team killed doesn't exactly seem point positive. Some premades can drop an entire alliance by themselves, but many need their team to also be building battle high and staying alive. I'm curious as to which tactics you were implying when writing the comment. I'd like to go back and edit my guide to ensure this is not the sentiment being spread.

I try my best to tell others to back up, fallback, don't get bursted by enemy darks, but sometimes I'm not or the team is not quick enough. People get left behind and have to be used as cover for an escape or be avenged in the counter burst.

Isn't there a bit where you address how to command the premade and mention the rapid retreats lead to collateral losses in the other 20 members of the team? Apologies if I misrepresented your position, I wrote the above from memory.

Let me add that both your strategic and tactical understanding of FL is exceptional and I genuinely admire your skill. That said, I'm not familiar with your recent call-outs since I blacklist anyone spamming the "KILL EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM" macro, or similar issues like using the same macro three times in a row, particularly if it includes <se.4>. Having made this change, I found things went just as well following your "D" marker, but ultimately I am so opposed to queue mixing that you are a major reason I quit playing the mode. Not a personal thing, just that I dislike playing with you or against you, and we tend to be on at the same time.

[OliviaLugria]

Isn't there a bit where you address how to command the premade and mention the rapid retreats lead to collateral losses in the other 20 members of the team? Apologies if I misrepresented your position, I wrote the above from memory.

Let me add that both your strategic and tactical understanding of FL is exceptional and I genuinely admire your skill. That said, I'm not familiar with your recent call-outs since I blacklist anyone spamming the "KILL EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM" macro, or similar issues like using the same macro three times in a row, particularly if it includes <se.4>. Having made this change, I found things went just as well following your "D" marker, but ultimately I am so opposed to queue mixing that you are a major reason I quit playing the mode. Not a personal thing, just that I dislike playing with you or against you, and we tend to be on at the same time.

No offense taken. I looked around to double check the guide. At least in the current version there is nothing about that. There use to be a mention of using afkers/bots as bait for enemy burst but it has since been removed. Rapid retreat in general is very important for the whole group not just the premade, just to finish that thought.

I think I've relaxed a bit on the spam as everyone has grown more receptive, but there's still those tense moments where I mess up. Close adherence to the D marker will get you through 90% of the calls, I don't blame you. I added instructions on how to mute chat when it's to much for people...

Sorry you can't enjoy the games I'm in... ;-;

[YouWereIndicted]

Sure, job stacking in itself is a problem as it can lead to silly LB combos. But people really need to learn to position better. I can't even count on one hand the amount of times I have died to the typical DRK pull. You can see it coming from a mile away and reposition. Most premades fall flat on their face when they're going against a team that is working together or even another premade. I've seen some premades go from Aether to Crystal or queue dodge so they can avoid a premade that has been giving them trouble so they can keep their winrate. They rely heavily on the same tactics and just farming BH from people who don't know how to press Guard or Recuperate. There has been many times I was obviously marked by a premade (usually Target to Bind 1 or they mark me as Ignore) because I kept ratting them on jobs like SAM or MNK and I'm just one person who is paying attention and trying to counter a burst. People just need to learn to work together better. Apologies for repeating the word "premade" nonstop haha, but they are absolutely not the problem. But there is no balancing a big player mode such as Frontlines.

Also, maybe in 2024 people will learn to ignore the DRK that's in their invuln and instead walk past them and LB the melees and ranged that are behind the DRK and are trying to kill you instead. That would be progress.

[Mawlzy]

You're suggesting an effective counter to a premade is a premade, but that premades are not the problem?

I agree that if a solo-queued random team contains more skilled players, the problem is greatly mitigated. But how is that going to happen? We could remove rewards and roulette XP so only PvP enthusiasts queue. I have a feeling that would not be super popular, however.

[YouWereIndicted]

You're suggesting an effective counter to a premade is a premade, but that premades are not the problem?

I agree that if a solo-queued random team contains more skilled players, the problem is greatly mitigated. But how is that going to happen? We could remove rewards and roulette XP so only PvP enthusiasts queue. I have a feeling that would not be super popular, however.

Nope! Only used that as an example that the average premade isn't as "OP" as people make them out to be regardless of their comp. If people weren't very dismissive of the game mode and just playing well in general this wouldn't be an issue. But yes you are right, that is never going to happen. People want things handed to them with no effort in this game and you're only allowed to try your best if its Savage/Ulti raiding apparently. Nowadays I only run this mode with friends as I got all my rewards. But when I was going for the achievements I was solo 99% of the time and that is my point of view on this game mode.

[Commander_Justitia]

People want things handed to them with no effort in this game and you're only allowed to try your best if its Savage/Ulti raiding apparently

People are openly bragging that they just join Frontline for the Exp, and that you should take a chill pill for trying to make a few callouts (5-10) with soundeffects per match.
I hope devs would incentivize active participation a bit more, the easiest way to do that is to tweak the rewards to be more in favor of 1st and 2nd place - and to not give out a flat XP roulette reward, if you don't win. Similar to moogle events.