Frontline Kinda Sucks

[NekoMataMata]

Without BH then you could have a full party of unkillable DRKS.
Some jobs depends of having Battle high to perform well (MCH/MNK/BLM) without BH I want to believe every match would end with almost no deaths

Increase the overall damage and remove BH.

I said BH was a problem a long time ago. It's a win-more tool. Even if every single alliance was on equal footing at the start, the alliance that comes out of the first few skirmishes with the most BH is going to slowly take the lead unless they misplay horribly. This gets even worse when there's obvious differences in skill levels between groups. If one group is far more coordinated then other groups won't really stand any chance after the people start getting BH.

Even without literally every issue mentioned in this thread, BH is still unhealthy, but every problem we've mentioned so far is made far, far worse with BH's existence.

[Mawlzy]

Increase the overall damage and remove BH.

I said BH was a problem a long time ago. It's a win-more tool. Even if every single alliance was on equal footing at the start, the alliance that comes out of the first few skirmishes with the most BH is going to slowly take the lead unless they misplay horribly. This gets even worse when there's obvious differences in skill levels between groups. If one group is far more coordinated then other groups won't really stand any chance after the people start getting BH.

Even without literally every issue mentioned in this thread, BH is still unhealthy, but every problem we've mentioned so far is made far, far worse with BH's existence.

I can go either way on this. BH certainly magnifies the oppressive influence of premades, but I've had many matches where farming BH from weakies in the alliance that includes the premade gives some counter to the premade itself. Additionally, when the result of such matches seems borderline pre-determined (pun intended), aiming for BH5 is one of the few entertaining things left to do.

[NekoMataMata]

I can go either way on this. BH certainly magnifies the oppressive influence of premades, but I've had many matches where farming BH from weakies in the alliance that includes the premade gives some counter to the premade itself. Additionally, when the result of such matches seems borderline pre-determined (pun intended), aiming for BH5 is one of the few entertaining things left to do.

I don't think your example works well because it's a case of good players vs bad players. Not all premades are good. There are premades and conductors and combinations of both that have absolutely no idea what they're doing.

Farming BH isn't necessarily how you win, it's more so the benefit of winning that enables you to keep winning. That's really all there is to it.

Which ever team is more organized will farm BH more quickly and will become unstoppable. You might have the rare game where you can farm BH off stragglers, or maybe even be a team 2 feeding off team 3 to overtake team 1(which is how the mode is intended), but that doesn't usually happen. More often than not one team takes off and you struggle to catch up.

[Boblawblah]

I'll admit my ignorance, I didn't even realize battle high was a thing until a few matches before I got my pvp armor reward :3. I've just been doing the daily roulette. That's wild that they basically gave a snowball advantage to a team doing well. Doesn't that just encourage the other teams to stop trying? idk, maybe I'm missing something.

[AnotherPerson]

I'll admit my ignorance, I didn't even realize battle high was a thing until a few matches before I got my pvp armor reward :3. I've just been doing the daily roulette. That's wild that they basically gave a snowball advantage to a team doing well. Doesn't that just encourage the other teams to stop trying? idk, maybe I'm missing something.

It works both ways actually. Having BH indicates what threats are on the enemy team and targets that should be focused down. Removing BH will also make this purely into a player-count game as there's no more potential to carry a team if your team is bad and doesn't want to try. BH just enables the potential to do more for your team, but it doesn't mean you get to do more if the enemy is aware you're a bigger threat and work to kill them. It doesn't take much to beat people who are under a huge amount of focused fire, BH or not. If they play well though, they can guard and escape -- but literally this invalidates the entire problem of DRK+AST because you can do the exact same thing.

That's basically what this conversation boils down to - player skill issue and teamwork. People are just mad they can't get through Frontlines without trying and win. People are also mad that if they put in effort, people who do it better and consider more aspects will win. People, for some reason, don't seem to realize what PvP really means and keep on using a PvE mindset in their complaints. It wouldn't matter if they nerfed BH, people will just use the next best combo that works with whatever BH is at and whatever the new meta is that takes the least effort to pull off. It wouldn't change anything if they removed BH or capped hitcount, people will just stack DRK + ASTx5 or DRG LB and WAR LB even more egregiously than before (ex: what was once 2-3 DRG will just become a full alliance of DRG if there's a limit on number of targets hit). People will always find a way and coordinate if they want to win, so this entire argument is utterly futile other than making roles feel homogenized to no end and taking away job strengths that people currently like.

[Boblawblah]

It works both ways actually. Having BH indicates what threats are on the enemy team and targets that should be focused down.

So having BH is a disadvantage because people know you have an advantage...? I gotta say, I'm not seeing that logic. But eh, pvp isn't my thing, so I'll bow out here, I don't know the ins and outs of it.

[Chasingstars]

So having BH is a disadvantage because people know you have an advantage...? I gotta say, I'm not seeing that logic. But eh, pvp isn't my thing, so I'll bow out here, I don't know the ins and outs of it.

Its more so painting a giant target on yourself. Yes you are doing well if you got battle high 5, aka 100 points, but if you die, you lose half, aka 50 points, for your team. So survival for the individual becomes one of the most important things. As lets say you die in the last few seconds of a match. That may have made your team go from 1st place to 3rd.

[Chasingstars]

I'll admit my ignorance, I didn't even realize battle high was a thing until a few matches before I got my pvp armor reward :3. I've just been doing the daily roulette. That's wild that they basically gave a snowball advantage to a team doing well. Doesn't that just encourage the other teams to stop trying? idk, maybe I'm missing something.

They can try to take someone down. But its a lot harder to do without focus fire. Its easier to focus fire any caster or ranged dps. Healers can take awhile without having enough dps. But the melee and tanks have a lot more tools specifically meant to tank a lot more hits.

The more you play frontlines, the more common of a sight it is to see four or five people chasing down one character who is leading them on this long chase and managing to survive. Sure they might eventually end that one player, but it takes a lot of effort. But the counterpoint is, the deathball. If all the people with a big battle high are sticking together, its a lot harder to take one down, and a lot more likely you or one of your teammates is getting knocked out. Its not impossible but it requires a lot more coordination.

Also whoever the 3rd place team is, is not simply going to give up. It may happen to your team or another team, but you will find whoever is in 3rd place will keep pursuing your team, even if your 2nd and its clear they should be going after 1st.

The snowballing with Battle High used to work differently a long while ago at this point. Where the only way you got battle high points is if you got kills. Assists back then granted nothing. So it used to be more of a meta of protecting whoever had the big battle high as they are sort of, mvp, of their team.

[Raikai]

The only way I can really see Frontlines being balanced is if they literally change Limit Breaks to have large scale PVP variations, since those are the the worst offenders when it comes to wacky balancing. Rest could probably be just adjustments without completely changing other actions.

[Astrahime]

Make BH5 players show up on the map again so that you don't get blindsided from them attacking from behind a wall. And give people 8v8v8 as an option again. PVP kits are balanced around CC anyway, and having less players should mitigate the AoE issues we currently run into.

And i'd love to be able to say "no" to the premade by using guard, but that doesn't take into account the fact that every single instance of damage snapshots in this game when the button is pressed, not when the animation ends. Which combined with the animation delay on Guard itself, makes it sound like you're saying Wobbling is a balanced mechanic in Melee.

If that damage snapshotting wasn't a thing, people would actually use Guard instead of seeing it as a useless skill because it slows you down and prevents you from attacking.