Would you rather healers get more complex healing kits or more complex DPS kits?

[Mayhemmer]

I think WAR should be the life-steal tank, but with the condition that it's tuned properly, and more importantly, you have to work for it (and doing that work being fun). Aside from that, I think maybe PLD is the only tank that should have any form of direct single-target or party heal/regen. I want jobs to fit their job fantasy.

[CaptainLagbeard]

I think the healers have enough healing options as they currently are. So I would rather they start building up their offensive options.

[Renathras]

I would break it down: ...

Agreed. Knocking it out of the park, my man. The Genshin part aside (not sure how well that would fit here, but...), the rest is spot on.

The problem with Bloodwhetting/Nascent is that the CD is so short, it can effectively be up all the time. It's not a situational ability like Clemency nor a long CD situational ability like Passage of Arms or even Shake It Off, and it incurs no penalty nor cost to use. If anything, NOT using it is penalizing yourself since it's free healing and free mitigation that is up so frequently you never really need to "hold" it in anticipation of anything.

I also don't think it's really fair comparing 1-2-3 heals (which are baked in over the course of a fight but won't save you themselves if things are going really bad since they're too small and too slow to do so) to things like Nascent or even Clemency.

[Self-harm mechanics are a bit more of a complicated thing since they have to be balanced carefully otherwise they don't work well. For example, if DRK was the only Tank that had to harm itself to do damage, the obvious result would be no one taking DRKs to parties anymore. Unless they did bonkers damage, in which case it would become a mandatory include. Neither of which are good... so then it would have to be ALL the Tanks that do it, and at that point, we're talking just another form of homogenization, not to mention it would alienate Tank players that don't like being edgy self harmers.]

[ty_taurus]

Here's a really wacky thought that just came to me, and I'm not necessarily promoting this idea, but it's a comparison that I had never made that's an interesting thought to consider:

Actions labeled as "spells" almost always come with an MP cost, unless they cost some other sort of resource like the lily heals. Well, in the Persona games, magic attacks cost that game's equivalent stat of "SP," but physical attacks cost a small percentage of the user's HP. For the sake of discussion, what if all weaponskills cost a percentage of the users HP to activate, something like 2-3% per weaponskill or something? For solo purposes, you could rework Second Wind into a GCD heal that has no cooldown, thus it costs the user DPS to use in a group setting, but is there to help physical DPS jobs maintain their HP when flying solo.

To address mechanics where the party's HP is reduced to 1... There's a character who consumes HP to use his skill in Honkai Star Rail where if he has less than the required amount, he can still use the skill and it will cost as much HP as he has, but leaves him at 1 HP, and it can be spammed at 1 HP without consuming any HP. You could set up weaponskills to work like that so it's not a disruption of your rotation.

It's just an idea that is interesting to think about. How would the landscape of FFXIV look if that were implemented?

[Shurrikhan]

Here's a really wacky thought that just came to me, and I'm not necessarily promoting this idea, but it's a comparison that I had never made that's an interesting thought to consider:

Actions labeled as "spells" almost always come with an MP cost, unless they cost some other sort of resource like the lily heals. Well, in the Persona games, magic attacks cost that game's equivalent stat of "SP," but physical attacks cost a small percentage of the user's HP. For the sake of discussion, what if all weaponskills cost a percentage of the users HP to activate, something like 2-3% per weaponskill or something? For solo purposes, you could rework Second Wind into a GCD heal that has no cooldown, thus it costs the user DPS to use in a group setting, but is there to help physical DPS jobs maintain their HP when flying solo.

To address mechanics where the party's HP is reduced to 1... There's a character who consumes HP to use his skill in Honkai Star Rail where if he has less than the required amount, he can still use the skill and it will cost as much HP as he has, but leaves him at 1 HP, and it can be spammed at 1 HP without consuming any HP. You could set up weaponskills to work like that so it's not a disruption of your rotation.

It's just an idea that is interesting to think about. How would the landscape of FFXIV look if that were implemented?

I... can't say I'd be a fan. First, doing it everyone would make it feel that much less special on jobs that would otherwise have a unique thematic attachment to HP-spending. More than that, though, it just makes no damn sense; we're not psychic manifestations for whom our actions would spend how long we could last for, unlike if, say, Living Shadow were revised to have something of an old Blood of the Dragon mechanic. And above all... would anyone want to feel like there's a max battery power on their ability to do anything at all, let alone like they're literally punching their own fingers/hands/arms/stumps off as if out of incompetence?

I'm trying to imagine the XIV landscape with it, but... I'm pretty immediately repulsed, tbh, so it's hard to imagine fine details.

[ForsakenRoe]

It's just an idea that is interesting to think about. How would the landscape of FFXIV look if that were implemented?

Given that a healer's GCD is 250p-330p (depending on which healer), and a DPS's is... more, usually (too many to list), I'd imagine the answer to that question is 'exactly the same as now, but the DPS bitch at the healer to have 100% Medica2 uptime to invalidate the HP draining effect of their weaponskills, thereby turning what was intended to be a DPS mechanic into an entirely Healer focused one'

[Shurrikhan]

Given that a healer's GCD is 250p-330p (depending on which healer), and a DPS's is... more, usually

Yes, but don't forget to multiply the healer's ppgcd per its trait modifiers (1.3x). If you're going to compare across roles (Tanks/Melee, Rangers, Casters/Healers), you'll need to do so in relative potency, not merely what's on the skill tooltips.

Dosis III spam, for instance, is a 429 relative ppgcd (+221 cppgcd). Eukresian Dosis is a relative 975p, Misery 1612p (yes, almost twice the relative potency of even a buffed Guren, a 2-minute SAM CD), etc.

[ForsakenRoe]

Yes, I did forget to factor in Maim and Mend's effect. However, we also have to consider that Medica 2 is AOE, and therefore would be 'one GCD to save ALL of the DPS/Tanks from having to press their self-heal GCD', meaning we'd be comparing one Glare Dosis etc lost, vs... let's call it 5 (two tanks, two melee, one physranged) GCDs of varying potencies

Besides, let's be real, even if it were 'a gain' in RDPS for the DPS to manage their own HP (eg, the healer's GCD works out to be like 15% more RDPS contribution for that GCD compared to the amount the DPS are going to lose by all pressing their selfheal), the healer would STILL be the one to 'suck it up', because it's the healer's job to heal

[Absurdity]

I wouldn't even mind the varying damage modifiers if the game actually told you.
Especially in the case of Tank Mastery telling you that it increases your damage dealt when it in fact does nothing at best and the opposite at worst, I don't particularly like the game lying to me.

But that issue can be expanded to pretty all of your character info.
You're not told how much % increases your stats give you, you're not even told that there are stat intervals and that, for example, going from 1008 Tenacity to 1026 Tenacity does absolutely nothing because the next interval is at 1027.

[Zaniel]

Title. Would you rather...

1. Heal kits stay more of less as simple as they are but their damage kits/party buffs get put back to HW/SB levels of complexity/interaction (not copy/paste those expac's but roughly that many damage buttons/interactions). Stuff like a tiny AoE that buff's people's damage, SCH getting its dots back, AST cards going back to how they were in SB, Aero 3 coming back. etc

2. Damage kits stay as they are (30 sec dot, one button spam), but their healing abilities are made significantly more complex. No more "press one button to heal everyone to full". More unique interactions, passives, cooldowns etc. Stuff like a CD where everyone's HP in an area is averaged out, a debuff on the boss heals anyone when they attack the boss, AoE heals cost way more MP/are on a cooldown. etc.

And yes, a mix of 1 and 2 is absolutely allowed and frankly, that's my preference.

The heal kits are already wildly over-engineered for what they have to cope with in game. First preference is more things baked into the fights to deal with, like more dispels and dots and heavier, more regular damage that actually stresses the existing heal kit and failing that a more complex DPS rotation. Any additional complexity added to heal kits would just be wasted because we already hardly have to use the existing kit.