Would you rather healers get more complex healing kits or more complex DPS kits?

[ty_taurus]

"a second CD, this one a GCD, and a 3 hit combo in a burst every 40 sec or so"

Still a terrible representation of what anyone has asked for. Is that honestly what you have taken away from the literal 2 years of arguing you done with the group of players around the forums? If so, then it just goes to show that you don't respect anyone enough to truly read what they write and listen. "a 3-hit combo" my ass. You mean the thing several players have specifically advocated against?

Want good faith discussion? Fix your response for real, or a toxic response is what you've earned. You get what you pay for.

[fulminating]

You mean the time period where damage was higher and we had less oGCDs and less powerful ones (even SCH) such that GCD healing was common (and necessary even on SCH), where half of that had Cleric Stance, and that same half was when theorycrafting was in its infancy AND where the raids were so tightly tuned that the second raid set destroyed the raiding scene and nearly killed the game a second time? Oh, and lest we forget, when many players still believed that healers were for healing, the traditional MMO view, and the idea that "healers are just Green DPS" had not fully congealed?

For the love of god Ren please stop trying to explain to Sebazy of all people how scholar and other healers were in arr/hw.

[ty_taurus]

For the love of god Ren please stop trying to explain to Sebazy of all people how scholar and other healers were in arr/hw.

It's like when a flat earther argues with an astronomer.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]All that to say, even in a game where you need to heal ~80% of the time you still have tons of ways and tons of time to deal damage in fun interesting ways.

Outside the very old classic Ragnarok Online, I don't think I remember playing any other MMO with "heal ~80% of the time" and I was quite one of the trashiest healer due to lack of experience & likely having biased view myself from that alone. Still, I had a vague memory where there were few times I remember I could help dish out some damage. Not much, but it was something. I wonder what other better, more experienced healers would perform? I bet they did 'non-heals' far more than I did.

[...]Imo best course of action is to just ignore him.

Sadly even if you do, you can still see some snippets of their quotes when it's brought up into another's replies. At least it's good for laughter when you're bored of 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 in-game, lol.

[ty_taurus]

Sadly even if you do, you can still see some snippets of their quotes when it's brought up into another's replies. At least it's good for laughter when you're bored of 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 in-game, lol.

When what feels like the conversational equivalent to shoving your head into a food processor is more entertaining than actually playing as a healer, you know there's a problem.

[AmiableApkallu]

Agreed, but if the argument is that a couple more DPS buttons will cure boredom....

That wasn't my argument, and you'd know that if you had actually read to the end of my comment.

Given this game's release cycle, the fact that familiarity breeds boredom means that boredom will set it, sooner or later. This is true for both healing and for dealing damage.

Like an addict, the people that got their "fix" with a bit more required healing will go back to their dealer and ask for more. It would never be enough.

But here's the difference: With damage options, content can be tuned so that it remains clearable even if people do sub-optimal DPS. Every leveling dungeon and trial is proof enough of this. Required healing has a hard ceiling of whatever healing healer's are capable of putting out, and hitting that ceiling means that there is literally zero room for mistakes, meaning you'd screw over every healer and every party that didn't play absolutely perfectly.

That said, let me be clear: This "eventual boredom" and "addict" thing is an absurd argument against no increases at all to required healing. It is similarly an absurd argument against no increases at all to DPS options. Repeat anything enough times, and boredom will set in. However, given the choice between becoming bored of 121111111111-bread-and-water vs. comfort food, I'll take the comfort food.

[KenZentra]

Ren has been saying nonstop that both DPS and Healing kits need to be reworked with both of those interacting with each other all the while that each healer be unique from each other so each plays differently. and that several aspects of the game need to be reworked anyways to fix the dull, mind numbing aspect of Healing as a role such as how damage is sent out and mitigated by several classes, massive healing potential and mit from most tanks, and how mechanics are handled by design. He hasnt said healing should be the ONLY change, but that you COULD let the healing kit be the only change TO healers.

While we both agree (i think) that there should be more consistent damage during encounters, I am the person who firmly believes that healing kits should be the only change to healing kits (aside from using DPS actions should interact your healing actions in some way).

Its just so bizarre to watch someone, advocate FOR having both, and people yell at him that we do not need a rework of healing kit or that the damage profile of encounters doesn't need to change, and people just saying he is wrong because of what healers have right now and what is expected of them right now.

Like, you guys know the first thing that goes into designing an encounter is how it interacts with healers, then Tanks, then DPS right?

[SargeTheSeagull]

Ren, can you honestly say what you think most people want to see in each healers’ damage kits? Honestly. No “I guess”, no silly quips, no straw manning, just plain and simple. On average, what do you think people like myself, Ty, ForsakenRoe, Sebazy etc, want to see done to healers? Because at this point idk if you’re trying to be clever and exaggerate or if you actually don’t understand.

[Renathras]

And so now we've entered the part of the thread where you guys derail it to attack me and then blame me for being everything wrong with conversations and preventing good discussion:

In other words, "The stopping point around which a given status quo should be given additional weight for the mere fact of existing at that point in time... is wherever it favors my interests, regardless of however many healer mains' favored experiences were stripped from them to the point of their leaving their main job, role, or even the game in getting to the point I like and want protected."

"Don't let me do any more than I do now, as I don't want to feel encouraged to do any more than this. No, I don't care that others' experiences had to be trimmed/dumbed down just to get here."
...
The only players to whom outright replacing any ability to contribute outside of healing --and therefore have one's contributions scale with competence without necessarily making the role painfully inaccessible (and with wholly bimodal, non-scaling contribution even then)-- would appeal is those who want an easier time of same-monitor Netflix-and-fill-while-cycling-CDs.

Stop asking for good faith discussion when you continue to turn around and intentionally misrepresent others’ arguments simply because you don’t like them.
...
Go play WoW.

Remember he's the only one who's right.

Imo best course of action is to just ignore him.

Tho I think Thur is right and it’s generally a good idea to just ignore him, that little lala sure as hell can make me laugh sometimes.

It's like when a flat earther argues with an astronomer.

Sadly even if you do, you can still see some snippets of their quotes when it's brought up into another's replies. At least it's good for laughter when you're bored of 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 in-game, lol.

Very very truncated summary of what Ren said to Sebazy. I have to point this out because of how mine smashingly stupid this statement is. Ren suggested making most fights’ damage profiles roughly like harrowing hell from P10

Narrator: Ren did not, in fact, suggest that. Sebazy decided to run numbers and used that comparison herself.

Still a terrible representation of what anyone has asked for. Is that honestly what you have taken away from the literal 2 years of arguing you done with the group of players around the forums? If so, then it just goes to show that you don't respect anyone enough to truly read what they write and listen. "a 3-hit combo" my ass. You mean the thing several players have specifically advocated against?

Want good faith discussion? Fix your response for real, or a toxic response is what you've earned. You get what you pay for.

Dude, I'm polite to people unless they're abject arses to me, and I'm never the one that starts throwing insults or attacks. In other words, I'm not the one that introduces toxicity to the situation. I already told you I'm representing ROE'S proposal specifically there. Yet you ignore that because you're on a tirade and want to keep calling me names instead of, you know, address the topic or arguments presented and raised by people you disagree with.

Did I not straight up say "Some of your proposals have been more in depth, but none of them are an incremental change"? Is this another case of you not reading my posts and just responding with insults that would have been avoided had you merely read posts before replying to them?

For the love of god Ren please stop trying to explain to Sebazy of all people how scholar and other healers were in arr/hw.

Which part of that statement, exactly, was wrong?

Was damage to the party more frequent and consistent relative to our kits? Yes.
Did we have less oGCDs then? Yes.
Did we have Cleric Stance then? Yes.
Was GCD healing common and even necessary? Yes.
Was theorycrafting still in its infancy in this game in HW? Yes.
Did Alexander devastate the raid community at the time? Yes.
Did many players believe "healers were for healing" and was this generally accepted by the community at that time? Yes.
...so much so that Cleric Stance was removed in 4.0 as a toggle/stance.

This is very much an ad hominem fallacy of "you don't know what you're talking about, never mind everything you said is correct". Flat earther? Really Ty?

.

But remember, everyone: Ren is the problem.

Just so you know, it's hard for people to take you seriously (other than you guys upvoting each other's posts and quote agreeing with each other) that I'm the problem in discussions when discussions go great until one of YOU GUYS decides to go on the warpath attacking me, ignores my response, and the rest of you join in circle-jerking each other's attacks on me.

Hard to see that I'm the toxic one that is disrupting conversations when the conversations - with me in them - are going fine until you guys decide to start bashing me instead of discussing the topic.

I just want to stick with the discussion and see my reply to SargeTheSeagull below.

[SargeTheSeagull]

Like, you guys know the first thing that goes into designing an encounter is how it interacts with healers, then Tanks, then DPS right?

When the hell have the devs ever said that? If that were the case why hasn’t every fight got an outgoing damage profile similar to barbarricia where we actually have to heal? Most encounters deal raidwide damage MAYBE once a minute.