Would you rather healers get more complex healing kits or more complex DPS kits?

[tearagion]

.

my bad, I guess immediately entering any discussion about healer dps for years to tell people why it's bad and not fun to you isn't stamping your feet.

I didn't call your opinion on more dps buttons idiotic, I called thinking that we only have "one shot" at providing healer feedback idiotic as indicated by the reasoning in the second half of the comment.

Not everyone agrees that encounter design and healing kit potencies need to be worked on either lol, you can find such people in this very thread.

[Renathras]

I think that was in response to specifically someone saying...

As I recall, it was someone wanting more damage buttons and saying they'd accept even just a 1-2-3 rotation at this point and you opposing it as you (and I said the same thing...) said because of fear that that would be the "solution" we'd be saddled with and that it wouldn't really fix anything.

...so...yes? Isn't that what I said?

In your case it was more limited to "I don't want to be stuck with a bad DPS situation that doesn't really fix the problem" where my point is a more general "I don't want to be stuck with a bad healing and DPS situation that doesn't really fix the problem", but I'm not sure how these are different since only fixing the DPS situation would still not fix the problem - which has been my point thus far.

Unfortunately,...which would would delivered in ?? Years???

What is "the scope of this discussion"?

The OP is a false dichotomy/either-or fallacy question, but the thread has spurred a pretty good discussion where you can see a lot of people not only don't think more DPS actions will fix the problem, but many people outright don't want more DPS actions or DPS complexity on healer Jobs in the first place.

So that is off the table as a solution - piecemeal or otherwise - since it's clearly not universally desired by healer players. (If we continue to pretend the 4 Healers Model solution isn't allowable, at least; that would allow for it, mind you). What people are telling you is that a narrow piecemeal solution of "We'll add healer DPS now and maybe get around to the real problems of encounter low healing, Tank and DPS sustain and mitigation, Healer kit potencies being overpowered, and a lack of non-damage related support gameplay some other time..." is not acceptable to a lot of players.

As much as I know you get annoyed at me for harping the 4 Healers Model all the time because you don't think it's a real solution, what do you tell all the players that don't want more DPS actions/complexity when pitching your solution?

At the very least, my model DOES give everyone a bit of what they want. Yours only serves one constituency at the expense of everyone else (for those who don't like DPS rotations on healers, adding DPS buttons is a downgrade, not an upgrade), and doesn't address what everyone sees as the actual problems - encounter design and overall healing/mitigation across all Jobs in the game.

I do understand the idea of "smaller thing should be easier to implement", but as I said with the faux idea of every healer Job having a constant but boring party damage buff they had to upkeep, that would be small but clearly make things worse not better for most players.

That is, what you miss is "more DPS actions" actually makes things WORSE to a lot of people AND could potentially delay real change/kick the can down the road of things that need to be done.

I'd rather them spend 2 years working on all of it and release it all at once then slap us with an awful DPS-lite rotation and we have to suffer with that forever.

[Renathras]

my bad, I guess...isn't stamping your feet.

If I had done that, it could be.

The problem is I haven't done that.

I've been very consistent at pointing out some people like DPSing on healers and some do not; some healer Jobs past incarnations were better (SCH, AST) and some were not (WHM, SGE had no prior incarnation). And my own pitched idea, the 4 Healers Model, incorporates more DPS buttons and damage actions on at least one and generally 2-3 of the healer Jobs. Several times I've even said all 4 as long as one is very limited (basically take EW WHM and give it SB Aero 3 and Thin Air; that's still an additional DPS action in Aero 3).

Clearly I'm not up in arms at the very mention of more DPS actions.

Not everyone agrees that encounter design and healing kit potencies need to be worked on either lol...

PRETTY MUCH everyone does. FAR MORE than just want more DPS actions only.

Even many of the people that want more DPS actions (e.g. in Ty's surveys) complained about encounter design, meaning an agreement it needs to be changed.

Even most of the "more DPS actions" regulars here don't oppose encounter design and kit reworks because they disagree, they oppose them because they aren't sure how you could do it retroactively for all encounters in the game's history to keep them clearble/think it's too big a task, and, for whatever reason, don't recognize or accept that this somewhat happens with old content every time there's a new Expansion (potency change and ability pruning/additions affect old content runs) or that other things have been done before in such cases (e.g. Epic Echo when the item squish happened). But the point is, they do agree that encounter design and healing/mitigation kits of Jobs are (at least part of) the problem, they just believe it CAN'T be fixed, which is why those people reject it as a solution.

People like Sebazy and Aravell, clearly no fans of mine, agree that the problem is far more than just damage kits.

While I'm sure there are probably some people that think encounter design itself is just fine, or that DPS and Tank healing, sustain, and mitigation, or healer kit overall healing and abilities are allllll just fine, I suspect they are a term I do not use often - a minority.

MECHANICS are fine, but encounter tuning, rates of damage, predictability of damage (imagine if every DPS Job had the exact same rotation every encounter, rigid and planned down to the second; that's modern healer gameplay once a fight has been figured out and everyone executes mechanics properly), and the mismatch between how powerful our healing is vs encounters and the ability of Tanks and DPSers to just clear stuff without any healers.

I think most people recognize those are problems, and not one of them is fixed by "more DPS actions/complexity" on healer Jobs, much less on all the healer Jobs even over the objections of people that don't want them.

[Katish]

PRETTY MUCH everyone does. FAR MORE than just want more DPS actions only.

While I'm sure there are probably some people that think encounter design itself is just fine, or that DPS and Tank healing, sustain, and mitigation, or healer kit overall healing and abilities are allllll just fine, I suspect they are a term I do not use often - a minority.

MECHANICS are fine, but encounter tuning, rates of damage, predictability of damage (imagine if every DPS Job had the exact same rotation every encounter, rigid and planned down to the second; that's modern healer gameplay once a fight has been figured out and everyone executes mechanics properly), and the mismatch between how powerful our healing is vs encounters and the ability of Tanks and DPSers to just clear stuff without any healers.

I think there is where we draw our differences I cannot say something I don't know. "PRETTY MUCH everyone does. FAR MORE than just want more DPS actions only." I mean can you observe this and speculate but even then I think observing the situation might have altercations. Nor do I agree with mechanics being fine, as the more you see a repeated mechanic the more you become used to it (that's just objective)...not to mention none of the mechanics address having a healer in particular do anything that is outside the realms of dps, and you could say just increase the rate of which damage goes out but that actually isn't a good solution because this would undermine healing potency for shielding potency (not to say it isn't a solution but it doesn't address the problem of having minut dps options because there is always a line) [and it would create something healers have never been before (which might actually throw people off the role)]. But if we were to increase the utility of the healer and create new mechanics that only healers could answer, it would stop them from being replaced and it would create a feel good feeling to answering that mechanic, because as a healer, only you could answer it. (Whatever that mechanic may be)

These differing opinions showcase something that is an obvious however, which is that everyone has a different perspective. That's why the role needs to be looked at every angle from every perspective, not just the ones you or I want to see happen.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Healers need less ogcd healing (can make that the damage skills) and more gcd healing.



The problem is healers almost never need to use gcds to heal because they have been given to many ogcds that trivialize it.



That's why healing has gotten less involved over time. Damage hasn't changed much, the tools have

[Renathras]

I think there is where we draw our differences...

/sigh

So, this the part where we derail the discussion again with quibbles about technicalities, is it?

Can we just not and say we didn't?

How many posters in this thread have said that ONLY healer DPS kits need to be changed and everything else is fine? Half a dozen?

How much ink has been spilled talking about how there's not enough to heal, how Tanks have too much sustain, how mitigation is outsourced to DPSers (who ALSO have too much healing) and so on? Even among people that do want more DPS actions added here, on reddit, and in the streaming community, these have been topics of discussion. It's something nearly universally recognized, by all the people opinionated enough to speak on the topic, as a problem.

So I don't stand this newfound desire to "well akshually it's not EVERYone!"

Know what else isn't everyone?

...people wanting more DPS actions.

So if we're going with the nebulous "if at least one person disagrees, it's not everyone" line of logic to oppose some ideas, then that means "more DPS actions/complexity" is just as quickly disqualified.

.

I prefer an all of the above solution, personally. Whether that be a holistic, top down complete overhaul of healing in this game from encounter design to damage umpredictability to Tank AND Healer AND DPS kits to non-damage support actions and even to more DPS actions OR an all of the above by way of the 4 Healers Model (a more limited "por que no los dos?"/"why not both?" to healer Job design/kits being the only thing changed), I think this is a problem that will not be solved by just slapping a DPS rotation onto every healer Job, and I very much think that would make it worse.

But the fact is, most people who care to exercise their voice on the topic agree that the problem does not demand "more DPS actions/complexity" solution. It demands something else.

And very likely, a "more DPS actions/complexity" would not be a stopgap, it would just make things worse for a lot of people.

[Katish]

/sigh

So, this the part where we derail the discussion again with quibbles about technicalities, is it?

Can we just not and say we didn't?

How many posters in this thread have said that ONLY healer DPS kits need to be changed and everything else is fine? Half a dozen?

How much ink has been spilled talking about how there's not enough to heal, how Tanks have too much sustain, how mitigation is outsourced to DPSers (who ALSO have too much healing) and so on? Even among people that do want more DPS actions added here, on reddit, and in the streaming community, these have been topics of discussion. It's something nearly universally recognized, by all the people opinionated enough to speak on the topic, as a problem.

So I don't stand this newfound desire to "well akshually it's not EVERYone!"

Know what else isn't everyone?

...people wanting more DPS actions.

So if we're going with the nebulous "if at least one person disagrees, it's not everyone" line of logic to oppose some ideas, then that means "more DPS actions/complexity" is just as quickly disqualified.

.

I prefer an all of the above solution, personally. Whether that be a holistic, top down complete overhaul of healing in this game from encounter design to damage umpredictability to Tank AND Healer AND DPS kits to non-damage support actions and even to more DPS actions OR an all of the above by way of the 4 Healers Model (a more limited "por que no los dos?"/"why not both?" to healer Job design/kits being the only thing changed), I think this is a problem that will not be solved by just slapping a DPS rotation onto every healer Job, and I very much think that would make it worse.

But the fact is, most people who care to exercise their voice on the topic agree that the problem does not demand "more DPS actions/complexity" solution. It demands something else.

And very likely, a "more DPS actions/complexity" would not be a stopgap, it would just make things worse for a lot of people.

I am not saying the latter is okay either... I would rather them balance the entirety of the kit itself as that would be at everyone's best interest:
"These differing opinions showcase something that is an obvious however, which is that everyone has a different perspective. That's why the role needs to be looked at every angle from every perspective, not just the ones you or I want to see happen. "

I don't adhere to anyone's design philosophy, I might like ideas, but it is ultimately up to the developer to implement the needed steps. Whatever those steps may be or look like should be by feedback basis alone and interpretation, learn by feedback and adhere to the kit. Everyone's opinion matters and shouldn't be disregarded as not a solution because it could very well be a solution, might not be the best one...but it most certainly should be at least held in memory as a basis to what the kit needs, and if it's shared enough should be what the kit should aim to strive for, with fight design in mind.

[Nizzi]

Not that this is related to any of the discussion I've read or anyone in particular's post other than the thread topic but I think the healing oGCD bloat is really amusing because the devs will design these really powerful tools like Panhaima or Lilybell and then make mechanics that are like, clearly designed to be exactly for them in Extreme/Savage etc which just entirely takes out any sort of interesting thinking a player gets to do about how they use their cooldowns. They seriously go "Here's your 5 hit mechanic, sometimes 6, perfect for that 5 hit mechanic Lilybell, right? Time for another 5 hit mechanic, but it's 3 minutes after the next one so Lilybell/Panhaima will definitely be up again for you to rinse and repeat!"

Instead of oGCDs being "I can use this on this mechanic to save myself GCDing here or save my cohealer a resource for the next one" it's just "I use this here because this mechanic was designed for me to press it and I have nothing better to use it for"

I think it stems from a sort of "it's not fun to die because my healer can't heal" which I think has been the driving force behind tanks becoming so absurdly broken sustain wise this expac (how is WAR being able to heal a teammate every 25s with Nascent part of the job fantasy at all? Shouldn't they be 'too angry' to deal with someone else's booboos?) and casual content hitting like a wet fish but it really does make most content sort of "children's block shape sorter" for healing oGCDs. Put the circle block in the circle slot, put the triangle in the triangle, etc,.

[VerdeLuck]

Healers need less ogcd healing (can make that the damage skills) and more gcd healing.



The problem is healers almost never need to use gcds to heal because they have been given to many ogcds that trivialize it.



That's why healing has gotten less involved over time. Damage hasn't changed much, the tools have

OGCD heals are what people asked for though, healers dislike being forced to choose between damage and healing. Tank and DPS players hate dying because their healer tried to greed out some damage to beat the DPS check.
Look at how contentious ED is after all these years because it makes you choose between extra damage and doing healing for your team. Adding that portion back in is going to cause more fights about healers greeding damage or not healing people who make mistakes and eat a mechanic because "why should I take a DPS loss when you make a mistake?".

[IDontPetLalas]

I am not saying the latter is okay either... I would rather them balance the entirety of the kit itself as that would be at everyone's best interest:
"These differing opinions showcase something that is an obvious however, which is that everyone has a different perspective. That's why the role needs to be looked at every angle from every perspective, not just the ones you or I want to see happen. "

I don't adhere to anyone's design philosophy, I might like ideas, but it is ultimately up to the developer to implement the needed steps. Whatever those steps may be or look like should be by feedback basis alone and interpretation, learn by feedback and adhere to the kit. Everyone's opinion matters and shouldn't be disregarded as not a solution because it could very well be a solution, might not be the best one...but it most certainly should be at least held in memory as a basis to what the kit needs, and if it's shared enough should be what the kit should aim to strive for, with fight design in mind.

The statement that you quoted seems to be a real fear/paranoia of his "How many posters in this thread have said that ONLY healer DPS kits need to be changed and everything else is fine? Half a dozen?".

Hence statements such as "That is, what you miss is "more DPS actions" actually makes things WORSE to a lot of people AND could potentially delay real change/kick the can down the road of things that need to be done.

"I'd rather them spend 2 years working on all of it and release it all at once then slap us with an awful DPS-lite rotation and we have to suffer with that forever."


I found Ty's statement to be the most realistic way of working with the development team. It should be possible to ask for incremental changes that would introduce some positive changes, I would prefer that to some 'big bang" approach, first of all everyone suffers with the status quo with the wait, and secondly there is no guarantee whatsoever that the development accurately makes the changes that we want- then fixes take more time to implement, and with the scope of changes- all healer jobs, possibly encounter design? That's a big risk