Would you rather healers get more complex healing kits or more complex DPS kits?

[SargeTheSeagull]

Title. Would you rather...

1. Heal kits stay more of less as simple as they are but their damage kits/party buffs get put back to HW/SB levels of complexity/interaction (not copy/paste those expac's but roughly that many damage buttons/interactions). Stuff like a tiny AoE that buff's people's damage, SCH getting its dots back, AST cards going back to how they were in SB, Aero 3 coming back. etc

2. Damage kits stay as they are (30 sec dot, one button spam), but their healing abilities are made significantly more complex. No more "press one button to heal everyone to full". More unique interactions, passives, cooldowns etc. Stuff like a CD where everyone's HP in an area is averaged out, a debuff on the boss heals anyone when they attack the boss, AoE heals cost way more MP/are on a cooldown. etc.

And yes, a mix of 1 and 2 is absolutely allowed and frankly, that's my preference.

[Zeastria]

I dont want more complex healing, nor complex dps rota...or many buttons..
I want higher HEALING REQUIREMENTS such has:
1) Bosses deal more auto atk damage
2) Remove self healing from dps/tank
3) Raid-wide dmg happens more often
4) Random damage spikes.
5) Mech that evolve around dispelling
6) AOE DoT DMG!

[RitsukoSonoda]

I dont want more complex healing, nor complex dps rota...or many buttons..
I want higher HEALING REQUIREMENTS such has:
1) Bosses deal more auto atk damage
2) Remove self healing from dps/tank
3) Raid-wide dmg happens more often
4) Random damage spikes.
5) Mech that evolve around dispelling
6) AOE DoT DMG!

Yeah, I feel the kit's themselves aren't the issue and that the real problem is the battles/encounters/duties themselves with a small amount caused by additions to some non-healer job kits.

[tearagion]

both, but damage first in line seeing as it's probably the single worst part about healing by a whole lot, and wouldn't require redesigning any of the combat encounters seeing as it was already a reality prior to shb.

[ChrysOCE]

I dont want more complex healing, nor complex dps rota...or many buttons..
I want higher HEALING REQUIREMENTS such has:
1) Bosses deal more auto atk damage
2) Remove self healing from dps/tank
3) Raid-wide dmg happens more often
4) Random damage spikes.
5) Mech that evolve around dispelling
6) AOE DoT DMG!

Yes, please.

[Saraide]

I'm afraid I'll largely repeat myself from the other thread but hey why not.

Personally I think 1 has to happen for the jobs to meaningfully improve. It's very easy to say "lets just make healers heal more" but the actual logistics of that are a lot more difficult. Incoming damage would have to reach truly ridiculous levels for the jobs as they are now. This will conflict with the devs wanting normal mode content to be easily clearable.

Limiting heals could easily lead to similar troubles for less experienced healers to the point where I dont think the middle ground to keep the job itself engaging for experienced healers while also keeping normal content easily clearable for inexperienced healers exists in a pure 2 approach.

I do like your ability ideas though and some of them could definitely be implemented regardless. I still think SE has tried too hard to make scholar and sage overly similar. The "hit the debuffed enemy to heal" sounds something right at home for scholar's command aspect.

Damage is the much easier thing to adjust as for the most part it doesnt affect the ability to clear at all simply because most content doesnt have dps checks at all or such loose checks that the only way you'll be hitting enrage is if the DPS players in the group are floor tanking regularly. In addition many fights already in the game are designed with the current healer abilities in mind (maybe overly so) and in being realistic here I dont think changing every old fight where more limited healing would suddenly be an issue is feasable. Healing off a doom is a mechanic in regular content already and DF healers are already struggling with that sometimes.

There has to be downtime between outgoing damage at some point to make it recoverable when things go wrong. If nothing goes wrong however we are again at the point where having a more intricate dps rotation makes sense to have. Compared to tanks that complexity would still be a bit lower probably so it's not like I am reaching for incomprehensible rotations like monk or black mage. They're still going to be easily understandable simply because so many buttons are already in the healing side and I dont expect that to change too much.

[Eraden]

I'm afraid I'll largely repeat myself from the other thread but hey why not.

Personally I think 1 has to happen for the jobs to meaningfully improve. It's very easy to say "lets just make healers heal more" but the actual logistics of that are a lot more difficult. Incoming damage would have to reach truly ridiculous levels for the jobs as they are now. This will conflict with the devs wanting normal mode content to be easily clearable.

Limiting heals could easily lead to similar troubles for less experienced healers to the point where I dont think the middle ground to keep the job itself engaging for experienced healers while also keeping normal content easily clearable for inexperienced healers exists in a pure 2 approach.

I do like your ability ideas though and some of them could definitely be implemented regardless. I still think SE has tried too hard to make scholar and sage overly similar. The "hit the debuffed enemy to heal" sounds something right at home for scholar's command aspect.

Damage is the much easier thing to adjust as for the most part it doesnt affect the ability to clear at all simply because most content doesnt have dps checks at all or such loose checks that the only way you'll be hitting enrage is if the DPS players in the group are floor tanking regularly. In addition many fights already in the game are designed with the current healer abilities in mind (maybe overly so) and in being realistic here I dont think changing every old fight where more limited healing would suddenly be an issue is feasable. Healing off a doom is a mechanic in regular content already and DF healers are already struggling with that sometimes.

There has to be downtime between outgoing damage at some point to make it recoverable when things go wrong. If nothing goes wrong however we are again at the point where having a more intricate dps rotation makes sense to have. Compared to tanks that complexity would still be a bit lower probably so it's not like I am reaching for incomprehensible rotations like monk or black mage. They're still going to be easily understandable simply because so many buttons are already in the healing side and I dont expect that to change too much.

Blacks Mage rotation "incomprehensables"? Coulda fooled Mao. Mao finds BLM rotation actually fairly simple.

[TheDustyOne]

More the first than the second, but I don't mind if the healing kits themselves have a bit more complexity and interest to them.

When talking about the healing kits:

• WHM I think should remain simple in healing, it's appeal is that it provides a decent entry level to healing itself, but a few extra spells or oGCDs that require more thought than "HP bar go right now" wouldn't be bad.
• SCH is more or less in a state where I enjoy its healing as-is compared to SGE, Energy Drain already makes us think through our oGCDs a little more thoughtfully, and has a few odd quirks like Excog only activating below 50% health, Recitation being either a free Aetherflow or a guaranteed big shield, etc. My only real complaint is that we want to avoid casting Adlo or Succor all that often.
• AST should lean more into its time aspect, I like Exaltation, but I wish it had more of a healing core around that kind of delayed heal. I've suggested "fast-forward" skills before as something for AST to use where it dispels regens and other timed effects to trigger them early (or in the case of regens, instantly applies remaining healing potency instantly).
• SGE is more or less SCH already but less complex/convoluted (pick whatever), I'd rather it move far away from its current design and lean into making something like Pneuma its core feature. Instead of Ixochole, we use Pneuma (albeit weaker than current), instead of Druochole, we have a single-target Pneuma on Kardion, etc.

As for DPS, well I've gone on ad-nauseum about what I think should be added for each, I'll quickly note I'm talking about single-target here:

• WHM should be more BLM-lite; long cast times, big numbers, much more GCD focused. I think it only needs about 4 DPS spells to be simple and engaging. I'd also avoid having strict timers like BLM.
• SCH should have its DoTs back, Shadowflare, Bane and Quickened Aetherflow. I'd also add Fester to that list personally.
• AST should bring back diverse cards, and personally, I think 1 more DPS spell, it makes sense for a fate-focused job to have a random proc in its kit.
• SGE should most definitely have the most DPS options, and the only one where I'd say should be higher than the 4-5 I keep suggesting, more like 6-7 abilities in a steady rotation, and a higher APM to match.

[Sebazy]

<snip>

Strictly speaking, neither for me.

IMHO the healing kits need to be pruned with more of an emphasis on shorter CDs and more dynamic play rather than the trend towards 'press this every 2 minutes to delete a mechanic' that we seem to be moving towards as of late.

For damage kits, frankly I don't really care what happens as long as it successfully stops me spending the majority of my GCDs mashing glare with a 30 second break for Dia refresh. I kid not when I say that my 6 key's RGB LED's are genuinely failing from the pounding that poor button takes. I suspect I'd be happy with a thundercloud proc, I suspect I'd be happy with some positional, just something to engage my brain when the content isn't.

[Jojoya]

I'm afraid I'll largely repeat myself from the other thread but hey why not.

Personally I think 1 has to happen for the jobs to meaningfully improve. It's very easy to say "lets just make healers heal more" but the actual logistics of that are a lot more difficult. Incoming damage would have to reach truly ridiculous levels for the jobs as they are now. This will conflict with the devs wanting normal mode content to be easily clearable.

It shouldn't conflict. It is possible to design things to keep healers focused on healing without making it too difficult.

What SE needs to do is give up their "healer death equals wipe" mindset. I know this is a point of contention but I don't see resurrection as something that needs to be a healer specific duty. Give parties a way to resurrect healers when there is not a second healer or RDM/SMN in the party (like remove the "out of combat" restriction on Phoenix Down and let it stack to 5 or similar) and that mindset can be removed. Once the mindset is changed, it's easier to make it more interesting to heal even in normal difficulty content.

Otherwise, might as well remove healers all together if they're just going to give tanks and DPS healer tools because they don't think healers are capable of performing their roles without causing wipes.