[Discussion and Feedback] Incoming damage vs. Utility

[Mayhemmer]

I like the idea of the first option, but maybe to a lesser degree. It's a thing I've been thinking about for a while, too.

How would you feel about:

• Mitigation/damage-reduction tools being stripped from non-support oriented DPS jobs (so things like Feint, Addle, Crest of Time Returned, Tactician, etc. being removed from NIN, DRG, SAM, RPR, SMN, BLM, MCH.)

• Jobs like MNK, BRD, DNC, and RDM keeping their support tools, as well as their unique mitigation/healing-up abilities they already have, thus contributing more to their supportive identity (Yes, I view MNK as a supportive job, even if only in some identity that doesn't exist anymore. It just has that feel for me)

• WAR and GNB's party-wide tools (Shake it Off and Heart of Light) NOT being removed, but toned down a bit, maybe with Shake it Off's barrier effect being removed, OR have it apply ONLY to the WAR. This means tanks like PLD and DRK, which always had that sort of "protect the weak" identity from earlier in the game, get to keep their party-wide support as-is.

• All Tank's 'Reprisal' being adjusted to only effect damage done to the tank that applied it.

It might not be perfect...... and it isn't, but thoughts, adjustments?

[mallleable]

I mentioned this in the 'boring dps rotations for healers' thread, but I wonder what it would be like if when a boss does an attack that also applies damage over time, that mitigation buffs/debuff no longer affect the damage over time component placing more responsibility on the healers. Overall I do think that mitigation buffs/debuffs are bit too strong/prevalent.

[OgruMogru]

It shouldn't, because as I said, the job of a tank is to protect the party. This is achieved primarily by drawing the attention of enemies, but also by reducing the incoming damage to the party, such as by using tank limit break, applying a single-target support buff to party members or to the party, or reducing the outgoing damage of the boss with something like Reprisal.

Meanwhile, a healer's job is to... heal.

Imo tanks defining feature is drawing enmity and boss positioning. Both of those responsibilities have been removed from the game. If they hadn't removed aggro management they wouldn't have had to give tanks healer gameplay [healing/mitigation] to compensate.

[Jeeqbit]

All Tank's 'Reprisal' being adjusted to only effect damage done to the tank that applied it.

Reprisal is a major part of tank's identity. It's one of the things I love most about tanks. It's one of the most versatile abilities in the game.

• You can use it to mitigate a raid-wide AoE.
• You can use it to mitigate AoE markers that every party member has.
• You can use it to mitigate double tank busters that affect both tanks.
• You can use it to mitigate raid-wide DoTs.
• You can use it to mitigate a tank buster on yourself.
• You can use it to mitigate heavy-hitting auto attacks by the boss.
• You can use it to reduce the damage the boss is dealing to non-players, such as an NPC or object that you are meant to protect ie. Estinien before the Aery revamp or pillars in A11S.
• You can use it on trash packs or multiple bosses since it was changed into an AoE mit.

Imo tanks defining feature is drawing enmity and boss positioning.

That's how new tanks see it (minus the boss positioning because many tanks never learned that), because they don't use any of their mitigations or other abilities, but once they learn to use their full kit and protect the party, it is a very fulfilling role and you see how versatile abilities such as Blackest Night, Intervention, Nascent Flash or Reprisal are.

Let's consult SE for their definitions.

• Tank: These classes and jobs utilize various defensive and enmity-gaining abilities to keep the enemy's attention, preventing other party members from taking damage.
• Healer: These classes and jobs utilize various curative abilities to restore the HP of party members and remove status ailments.
• DPS: These classes and jobs utilize various offensive abilities to dispatch enemies as quickly as possible.

So even by SE's definition, defensive abilities to prevent party members taking damage are indeed one of the responsibilities of a tank. It only mentions that healers should heal and use Esuna and that DPS should use offensive abilities to attack; it does not mention that healers or DPS should use defensive abilities at all.

[Mayhemmer]

Reprisal is a major part of tank's identity.

Do you do this on purpose?

[Jeeqbit]

Do you do this on purpose?

Use Reprisal? Yes.

I think some people don't know where Reprisal came from. Originally it was a Dark Knight ability in Heavensward, but the intention of it becoming a Role Action in Stormblood was actually to replace the STR down on PLD's Rage of Halone combo and the INT down on Dark Knight's Delirium combo. So tanks did always have this and it was always part of what they did.

I can understand that many people won't know that history or use Reprisal as much, but to me, it is a big part of what I enjoy about tanking and I've been happy since it was turned into an ability I can use when I actually need it, rather than part of a combo.

[Oizen]

I mentioned this in the 'boring dps rotations for healers' thread, but I wonder what it would be like if when a boss does an attack that also applies damage over time, that mitigation buffs/debuff no longer affect the damage over time component placing more responsibility on the healers. Overall I do think that mitigation buffs/debuffs are bit too strong/prevalent.

Problem with that is tools like Shake it Off + Overtime, Veil still exist and still deal with that in a pretty effective way.
I think all that would do is further unbalance the game by making Shield HP and Regen significantly better than mitigation. Jobs like GNB and DRK would suffer for it as they dont have equivlants to it.

Personally I think the issue is more of fight design, way back when fights used to have a lot more depth to them in terms of managing outgoing damage onto the tanks.
Thordan UR is a good example of this, his Auto attacks are scarier than almost every savage fight you'll find this tier baring P8SP2's double tank buster auto gimmick.

Now fights are less about mitigating damage and restoring health, rather they're wipe or fail fights with a heavy focus on body checks, the actual daamge outgoing isn't as high as it used to be.
Because of this tools like Shake it Off's Regen, Nascent Flash, Veil,Intervention (ect) end up being enough to get people back up to max, and ready for the next mandantory raidwide damage.

Its not that these jobs are out healing healers, its that fights don't really demand all that much from healers outside of key moments, and we're tetering on the edge of powercreep where tools that heal less like the tank moves I listed earler are becoming enough to cover that. Theres a reason all the big contents cleared healer-less were stacking up on PLD and WAR, some even doubling on both.

[ThaCa]

Just make all DPS greedy.

Tanks gain all mitigation (maybe shields)

Healers gain all raid buffs and utility after combining some of the bloat together.

[OgruMogru]

That's how new tanks see it (minus the boss positioning because many tanks never learned that), because they don't use any of their mitigations or other abilities, but once they learn to use their full kit and protect the party, it is a very fulfilling role and you see how versatile abilities such as Blackest Night, Intervention, Nascent Flash or Reprisal are.

Let's consult SE for their definitions.

• Tank: These classes and jobs utilize various defensive and enmity-gaining abilities to keep the enemy's attention, preventing other party members from taking damage.
• Healer: These classes and jobs utilize various curative abilities to restore the HP of party members and remove status ailments.
• DPS: These classes and jobs utilize various offensive abilities to dispatch enemies as quickly as possible.

So even by SE's definition, defensive abilities to prevent party members taking damage are indeed one of the responsibilities of a tank. It only mentions that healers should heal and use Esuna and that DPS should use offensive abilities to attack; it does not mention that healers or DPS should use defensive abilities at all.

Yeah and that would be fine if tanks still actually had the responsibility of aggro management or boss positioning but they largely don't. It's all been dialled back so much and even then gen pop tanks still struggle with grouping or splitting adds [or even picking them up in the first place] and their aggro management is non existent. I'm not arguing that tanks shouldn't have any mit but the way things are the moment they are encroaching too much on healers role/responsibilities because their own unique responsibilities have been culled. I don't wanna just derail and go on a tirade about bad tanks but in my experience the general level of competence of tanks has plummeted and it's because they've had the parts of the job that actually help the entire group overlooked in favour of being overloaded with survivability. It makes bad tanks careless and less aware of the fight at large and means good tanks are stepping on the toes of their healers because they have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to utility. and DPS. and survivability.

[Sebazy]

Something that's come to mind the last few weeks is "Is it really the amount of incoming damage that's the issue, or is it that we have too much potent utility at our disposal?".

To add to this, another facet of this issue is that damage spikes are typically much more choreographed now. Go back to Coil and you had bosses with cleaves, mini tank busters and so forth that critically were on short timers with no cast bar whatsoever. Couple this with modern bosses routinely spending so much more time casting which in turn means far fewer auto attacks going out and you pretty much have one side of the coin right there.

Then of course as you say, we also have much stronger mitigation tools as well.

It's not one or the other, it's a bit of both.