[Discussion and Feedback] Incoming damage vs. Utility

[Jeeqbit]

All Tank's 'Reprisal' being adjusted to only effect damage done to the tank that applied it.

Reprisal is a major part of tank's identity. It's one of the things I love most about tanks. It's one of the most versatile abilities in the game.

• You can use it to mitigate a raid-wide AoE.
• You can use it to mitigate AoE markers that every party member has.
• You can use it to mitigate double tank busters that affect both tanks.
• You can use it to mitigate raid-wide DoTs.
• You can use it to mitigate a tank buster on yourself.
• You can use it to mitigate heavy-hitting auto attacks by the boss.
• You can use it to reduce the damage the boss is dealing to non-players, such as an NPC or object that you are meant to protect ie. Estinien before the Aery revamp or pillars in A11S.
• You can use it on trash packs or multiple bosses since it was changed into an AoE mit.

Imo tanks defining feature is drawing enmity and boss positioning.

That's how new tanks see it (minus the boss positioning because many tanks never learned that), because they don't use any of their mitigations or other abilities, but once they learn to use their full kit and protect the party, it is a very fulfilling role and you see how versatile abilities such as Blackest Night, Intervention, Nascent Flash or Reprisal are.

Let's consult SE for their definitions.

• Tank: These classes and jobs utilize various defensive and enmity-gaining abilities to keep the enemy's attention, preventing other party members from taking damage.
• Healer: These classes and jobs utilize various curative abilities to restore the HP of party members and remove status ailments.
• DPS: These classes and jobs utilize various offensive abilities to dispatch enemies as quickly as possible.

So even by SE's definition, defensive abilities to prevent party members taking damage are indeed one of the responsibilities of a tank. It only mentions that healers should heal and use Esuna and that DPS should use offensive abilities to attack; it does not mention that healers or DPS should use defensive abilities at all.

[Mayhemmer]

Reprisal is a major part of tank's identity.

Do you do this on purpose?

[Jeeqbit]

Do you do this on purpose?

Use Reprisal? Yes.

I think some people don't know where Reprisal came from. Originally it was a Dark Knight ability in Heavensward, but the intention of it becoming a Role Action in Stormblood was actually to replace the STR down on PLD's Rage of Halone combo and the INT down on Dark Knight's Delirium combo. So tanks did always have this and it was always part of what they did.

I can understand that many people won't know that history or use Reprisal as much, but to me, it is a big part of what I enjoy about tanking and I've been happy since it was turned into an ability I can use when I actually need it, rather than part of a combo.

[OgruMogru]

That's how new tanks see it (minus the boss positioning because many tanks never learned that), because they don't use any of their mitigations or other abilities, but once they learn to use their full kit and protect the party, it is a very fulfilling role and you see how versatile abilities such as Blackest Night, Intervention, Nascent Flash or Reprisal are.

Let's consult SE for their definitions.

• Tank: These classes and jobs utilize various defensive and enmity-gaining abilities to keep the enemy's attention, preventing other party members from taking damage.
• Healer: These classes and jobs utilize various curative abilities to restore the HP of party members and remove status ailments.
• DPS: These classes and jobs utilize various offensive abilities to dispatch enemies as quickly as possible.

So even by SE's definition, defensive abilities to prevent party members taking damage are indeed one of the responsibilities of a tank. It only mentions that healers should heal and use Esuna and that DPS should use offensive abilities to attack; it does not mention that healers or DPS should use defensive abilities at all.

Yeah and that would be fine if tanks still actually had the responsibility of aggro management or boss positioning but they largely don't. It's all been dialled back so much and even then gen pop tanks still struggle with grouping or splitting adds [or even picking them up in the first place] and their aggro management is non existent. I'm not arguing that tanks shouldn't have any mit but the way things are the moment they are encroaching too much on healers role/responsibilities because their own unique responsibilities have been culled. I don't wanna just derail and go on a tirade about bad tanks but in my experience the general level of competence of tanks has plummeted and it's because they've had the parts of the job that actually help the entire group overlooked in favour of being overloaded with survivability. It makes bad tanks careless and less aware of the fight at large and means good tanks are stepping on the toes of their healers because they have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to utility. and DPS. and survivability.

[mallleable]

I mentioned this in the 'boring dps rotations for healers' thread, but I wonder what it would be like if when a boss does an attack that also applies damage over time, that mitigation buffs/debuff no longer affect the damage over time component placing more responsibility on the healers. Overall I do think that mitigation buffs/debuffs are bit too strong/prevalent.

[Oizen]

I mentioned this in the 'boring dps rotations for healers' thread, but I wonder what it would be like if when a boss does an attack that also applies damage over time, that mitigation buffs/debuff no longer affect the damage over time component placing more responsibility on the healers. Overall I do think that mitigation buffs/debuffs are bit too strong/prevalent.

Problem with that is tools like Shake it Off + Overtime, Veil still exist and still deal with that in a pretty effective way.
I think all that would do is further unbalance the game by making Shield HP and Regen significantly better than mitigation. Jobs like GNB and DRK would suffer for it as they dont have equivlants to it.

Personally I think the issue is more of fight design, way back when fights used to have a lot more depth to them in terms of managing outgoing damage onto the tanks.
Thordan UR is a good example of this, his Auto attacks are scarier than almost every savage fight you'll find this tier baring P8SP2's double tank buster auto gimmick.

Now fights are less about mitigating damage and restoring health, rather they're wipe or fail fights with a heavy focus on body checks, the actual daamge outgoing isn't as high as it used to be.
Because of this tools like Shake it Off's Regen, Nascent Flash, Veil,Intervention (ect) end up being enough to get people back up to max, and ready for the next mandantory raidwide damage.

Its not that these jobs are out healing healers, its that fights don't really demand all that much from healers outside of key moments, and we're tetering on the edge of powercreep where tools that heal less like the tank moves I listed earler are becoming enough to cover that. Theres a reason all the big contents cleared healer-less were stacking up on PLD and WAR, some even doubling on both.

[RitsukoSonoda]

I mentioned this in the 'boring dps rotations for healers' thread, but I wonder what it would be like if when a boss does an attack that also applies damage over time, that mitigation buffs/debuff no longer affect the damage over time component placing more responsibility on the healers. Overall I do think that mitigation buffs/debuffs are bit too strong/prevalent.

Cloud of Darkness actually applies a DoT to the tank with it's basic attacks. This seems to cause the majority of tank deaths I see during that fight since shield mitigation is limited at that lvl range and normal mitigation doesn't help with it. So if the healers lapse in paying attention the person tanking hits the floor due to being punched and DoT tic'ed at the same time.

[Jeeqbit]

Cloud of Darkness actually applies a DoT to the tank with it's basic attacks. This seems to cause the majority of tank deaths I see during that fight since shield mitigation is limited at that lvl range and normal mitigation doesn't help with it. So if the healers lapse in paying attention the person tanking hits the floor due to being punched and DoT tic'ed at the same time.

When I've done the alliance raid minimum item level, we actually had to do tank swaps for it. I vaguely remember this happening when I did it back in ARR or Heavensward too.

[RitsukoSonoda]

When I've done the alliance raid minimum item level, we actually had to do tank swaps for it. I vaguely remember this happening when I did it back in ARR or Heavensward too.

Swapping was one way to deal with it. Trials back then also created a necessity for tank swapping as well due to stacking debuffs generated by the boss.

[Absurdity]

Swapping was one way to deal with it. Trials back then also created a necessity for tank swapping as well due to stacking debuffs generated by the boss.

Not just trials back then. I remember tank swapping simply because my co-tank still had all their defensives, and I would've had to either swap to Defiance or pray, as late as Stormblood.

It was really only with Shadowbringers that this started to shift heavily. Bosses started doing so little tank damage and busters were so spaced out that the "main" tank could cover every attack with just their own cooldowns.
Which is why a lot of bosses nowadays either give a vuln up debuff to force a swap or put a buster on both tanks, because otherwise the "off" tank would just be sitting on their defensives the entire fight.