Breaking the Majority’s Silence: A Job Criticism Thread

[Neoyoshi]

The job topic itself aside, which group is supposed to be the minority and the majority?

[Renathras]

No the hell we aren’t. Anyone who cares about 14’s gameplay at all and has any perspective at all thinks jobs are unreasonably boring and oversimplified.

I'm not sure how far - or not - in the minority you are, but plenty of people care about 14's gameplay "at all" have have perspective "at all" and do like some or most Jobs as they are now.

If jobs were fine, why do we have so many threads?
If roles were fine, why is it possible to clear ultimate without healers?
If healers were fine, why do people leave feedback for over 2 expansions?
If Machinist, Summoner, DRK, etc were fine, why do they feel incomplete?

1) Because the vocal minority is VERY vocal.
2) Exactly ONE ultimate has had this done at level/current content, done by an extremely skilled set of players cheesing mechanics. One could argue it's not the roles but being able to wait to accept raises that was the issue.
3) See (1)
4) They don't "feel incomplete" to everyone, they do to you. That's a subjective position, not a statement of fact.

On (4) specifically, this is where you are going to get the most divergence between players. Whenever you use the word "feel", you're talking about something specific to you. While some others may feel the same way, still other people may not feel that way at all. It's like taste in music or art etc. For example, SMN's Summons don't feel monotonous to me at all. Each one has a nice dopamine hit that I enjoy a lot. I'm not saying my position is universal, but I am saying yours is not, either. And your DRK statement there is literally you arguing for homogenization/boredom - if DRK DIDN'T have MP management and DID work like the other tanks "use their skills anytime on cooldown", that would be the dreaded homogenization demon rearing its head, would it not?

The only way to know (1) and (3) would be to see what the entire playerbase thinks. (4) is subjective and thus there's no way to prove either way. (2) is an extremely niche situation in extremely niche content that has no bearing on much of the game and was done by extremely niche/skilled players using a very specific niche strategy (Cover + Invulns + cheesing waiting to accept raises + RDM mass raising potential) and still running dozens or even hundreds of times until the RNG gods lined up for them just right. The fact people use that zero healer TOP clear as evidence of ANYthing is honestly absurd. Much less using it as some indictment on the entire game.

[Gralna]

snip

to add to this, another common fallacy I see in many of these arguments, across pretty much every online community, is, "everyone I talk to feels the same way", not realizing that through the social groups they chose to take part in, they are creating an echo chamber of people with the same goals, views and grievances as they do. So of course they'll hear the same issues and complaints brought up over and over again, and feel like "everyone" is talking about it and feeling the same way. Meanwhile the other 99% of the player base not in those circles are talking about their own things, enjoying different content, setting different goals, and having different grievances in their own 1% circles.

[Ayche]

You know, the developers have access to the raw data who plays their game, for how long and how they play it, and what are the cut off points for disengagement.

You hire couple of analysts and boom, you got an idea what the silent majority looks like. Game developers don't have too guess. Behaviour is not silent.

[RitsukoSonoda]

You know, the developers have access to the raw data who plays their game, for how long and how they play it, and what are the cut off points for disengagement.

You hire couple of analysts and boom, you got an idea what the silent majority looks like. Game developers don't have too guess. Behaviour is not silent.

Yes and no. The issue is looking at that data doesn't account for nuances and context. Such as how many people are doing something simply due to necessity? Or in the case of the Manderville weapons. Sure more weapons are being created. However how many players are simply creating and upgrading the weapons as a means to just dump tomes accumulated doing their weekly's?

[Ayche]

Yes and no. The issue is looking at that data doesn't account for nuances and context. Such as how many people are doing something simply due to necessity? Or in the case of the Manderville weapons. Sure more weapons are being created. However how many players are simply creating and upgrading the weapons as a means to just dump tomes accumulated doing their weekly's?

If you mean by that the popularity could be inflated by such means for example, that is a trivial thing to filter on a data set.

Like you can filter based on just first relic created per player. They even operate by different quests. Data analysis is always educated guessing, but it is not controversial conclusion to draw that popular things tend to serve a purpose.

[Payadopa]

People say only the minority comes here (which is true I think) and yet this is still a feedback forum. This talk about numbers and validity is arbitrary at best. Let SE hear your feedback and move on.

[xbahax92]

I'm not sure how far - or not - in the minority you are, but plenty of people care about 14's gameplay "at all" have have perspective "at all" and do like some or most Jobs as they are now.



1) Because the vocal minority is VERY vocal.
2) Exactly ONE ultimate has had this done at level/current content, done by an extremely skilled set of players cheesing mechanics. One could argue it's not the roles but being able to wait to accept raises that was the issue.
3) See (1)
4) They don't "feel incomplete" to everyone, they do to you. That's a subjective position, not a statement of fact.

On (4) specifically, this is where you are going to get the most divergence between players. Whenever you use the word "feel", you're talking about something specific to you. While some others may feel the same way, still other people may not feel that way at all. It's like taste in music or art etc. For example, SMN's Summons don't feel monotonous to me at all. Each one has a nice dopamine hit that I enjoy a lot. I'm not saying my position is universal, but I am saying yours is not, either. And your DRK statement there is literally you arguing for homogenization/boredom - if DRK DIDN'T have MP management and DID work like the other tanks "use their skills anytime on cooldown", that would be the dreaded homogenization demon rearing its head, would it not?

The only way to know (1) and (3) would be to see what the entire playerbase thinks. (4) is subjective and thus there's no way to prove either way. (2) is an extremely niche situation in extremely niche content that has no bearing on much of the game and was done by extremely niche/skilled players using a very specific niche strategy (Cover + Invulns + cheesing waiting to accept raises + RDM mass raising potential) and still running dozens or even hundreds of times until the RNG gods lined up for them just right. The fact people use that zero healer TOP clear as evidence of ANYthing is honestly absurd. Much less using it as some indictment on the entire game.

I can easily finish dungeon runs without a healer. Does that make me niche now? A tank is all you need to survive boss mechanics, hell there are situations where the healer dies early and you can still finish the boss.
And not to forget, everything is subjective. Even your opinion. Are you the majority?

[Renathras]

I can easily finish dungeon runs without a healer. Does that make me niche now? A tank is all you need to survive boss mechanics, hell there are situations where the healer dies early and you can still finish the boss.
And not to forget, everything is subjective. Even your opinion. Are you the majority?

"If roles were fine, why is it possible to clear ultimate without healers?"

I was unaware that dungeon runs were ultimates.

EDIT:

Also, I've never claimed to be a majority. I just claim to be a number greater than 0.
...unlike some people with some views...

[ThaCa]

They will keep running issues with Jobs as they make more of them. Not to mention the existing trouble within sub classes, where BLM and MCH are outliers in their role and will continue to be painful to keep in line with rest one way or another.