A Different Approach to Relics

[Shurrikhan]

Hence why I noted "With the assumption that you're talking about weekly-capped currency being spent on relic progress -or- gear.", because your suggestion seems kinda confusing on whether you're talking about two or three currencies.

What do we have now? Three types.

• Basically Uncapped Non-Season Tomestones not limited to endgame -- Poetics.
• Weekly-Capped Seasonal Endgame Tomestones -- currently called Comedy, but the name changes / a new tier is shifted in each time a new Savage tier is released (i.e., the start of each new 'season').
• Basically Uncapped Seasonal Endgame Tomestones -- currently called Causality, though each new season the former Weekly-Capped Tomestone is degraded into its position.

How many are there between "Poetics, Uncapped Seasonal Tomestones, and Weekly-Capped Seasonal Tomestones". Three types. The same three types.

The differences are merely that you'd buy old levelcap gear with Poetics, too, now, while the Uncapped Seasonal Tomestones would just be used on Relic progression, while Relic progression in turn only uses that currency, and the Uncapped Seasonal Tomestones would be new with each season, rather than just the previous capped tomestone being degraded to its position.

Done. Players would no longer be able to bank currency ahead of a new Relic stage, all without having to demand handfuls of inventory bloat or inflexible tasks.

At that point, all that is needed is reward balance enough to give players actual choice in content, which is something we'd want regardless of the inclusion of Relics.

That's basically the current system, with Poetics moved to be more important, while adding a currency that's basically "dead" for the first half of an even-numbered patch. Unless you mean the uncapped relic currency will be added before the actual relic step is made available (in the x.x5 patch), which would kind of defeat the point of the change. It would just give players a 2 month time window to farm up relic currency, which would again remove any choice on how one would work on their relic.

Then just start the Relic quests with the launch patch. Why would you not, anyways? They'd be using an independent and singular currency; the devs would be free to increasingly ramp up the rewards pace as the season edges along if they so please.

All this is besides the point, though. Again, all that matters is that it's simply a singular, intuitive currency. Call it Light. Call it Essence. Call it Magia. Call it SparklePopPower. Or keep it a core, easily found currency as per tomes. It doesn't matter what the name is or what tab it falls under long as it can't be pre-banked, which can as easily be prevented whether it's "Tomestones of X" or "Relic Points".

[Nezerius]

What do we have now? Three types.

• Basically Uncapped Non-Season Tomestones not limited to endgame -- Poetics.
• Weekly-Capped Seasonal Endgame Tomestones -- currently called Comedy, but the name changes / a new tier is shifted in each time a new Savage tier is released (i.e., the start of each new 'season').
• Basically Uncapped Seasonal Endgame Tomestones -- currently called Causality, though each new season the former Weekly-Capped Tomestone is degraded into its position.

How many are there between "Poetics, Uncapped Seasonal Tomestones, and Weekly-Capped Seasonal Tomestones". Three types. The same three types.

The differences are merely that you'd buy old levelcap gear with Poetics, too, now, while the Uncapped Seasonal Tomestones would just be used on Relic progression, while Relic progression in turn only uses that currency, and the Uncapped Seasonal Tomestones would be new with each season, rather than just the previous capped tomestone being degraded to its position.

Done. Players would no longer be able to bank currency ahead of a new Relic stage, all without having to demand handfuls of inventory bloat or inflexible tasks.

At that point, all that is needed is reward balance enough to give players actual choice in content, which is something we'd want regardless of the inclusion of Relics.

Look, I'm not saying your suggestion is bad, but you're not actually paying attention to what SE has been doing over the past few expansions, and how the types are of tomestones are relegated.

Yes, we have three types of tomestones currently

• Tomestones for legacy content (anything prior to the current expansion - Poetics
• Uncapped tomestones for the current expansion's crafting materials, and pre-savage gear/gear from previous tiers - Causality (or whatever name they give it with every other new tier)
• Weekly capped tomestones for the current savage tier - Comedy (or whatever name they give it with every new tier)

SE absolutely loves this structure, as can be seen by how they've handled it since the release of Heavensward. It gives a clearly defined currency for previous expansions, and two clearly defined currencies for the current expansion.
The chances of SE changing this to work with your suggestion are very, very low, unless the result would be significant enough for them to change a system structure that's been around for almost a decade.

Then just start the Relic quests with the launch patch. Why would you not, anyways? They'd be using an independent and singular currency; the devs would be free to increasingly ramp up the rewards pace as the season edges along if they so please.

Which would be absolutely great, yes. But again, you're not paying attention to how SE has been handling patches, and how they've been spreading out content for several expansions now. Something that's honestly surprising for someone who has been around since pre-ARR, and this active on the forums.

It's unlikely for SE to see enough reason to move relics from the x.x5 to the initial major patch release, otherwise they would've done so already.

All this is besides the point, though. Again, all that matters is that it's simply a singular, intuitive currency. Call it Light. Call it Essence. Call it Magia. Call it SparklePopPower. Or keep it a core, easily found currency as per tomes. It doesn't matter what the name is or what tab it falls under long as it can't be pre-banked, which can as easily be prevented whether it's "Tomestones of X" or "Relic Points".

I mean, you're the one who completely latched onto the tomestones part of my post.

A post in response to TaleraRistain, in which they suggested multiple options to obtain a relic. With said options being 1) obtaining items in specific content, or 2) purchasing items with tomestones.

[Shurrikhan]

I mean, you're the one who completely latched onto the tomestones part of my post.

A post in response to TaleraRistain, in which they suggested multiple options to obtain a relic. With said options being 1) obtaining items in specific content, or 2) purchasing items with tomestones.

Fair enough. My point, though, was just that whether players can bank ahead of new relic steps or not comes down to a very arbitrary design decision that, yes, XIV could as easily flip the switch on as leave settled. There's plenty else they've changed in that regard. Accessories used to be usable by all, to the point that players said they always would. Overnight, they weren't. We had a consistent inclusion of Exploratory Missions for 3 expansions in a row (Diadem, Eureka, Bozja). Then we didn't.

I.e., just because an issue exists under a current arbitrary circumstance does not mean that even tradition/stagnation-loving XIV must maintain that issue. As such the complaint seemed an odd one to me among a thread specifically on different approaches to Relics.

But alrighty. Let's say they likewise break the mold by adding a new granular currency, which they've only done once outside of the addition of PvP and Hunts. Instead of messing with any tomestones or thereby needing to correct any longstanding issues in reward balance for that broader system, we just add a new currency tab for Relics, complete up to 4 separate currencies therein for their different steps. In that way, again, nothing can be pre-banked, but we avoid the inventory bloat issues and don't have to return to Hyrstmill to ask how bright our light is glowing as not to risk overcapping a stage's progress, etc.

Personally, I would like that we could progress anything from anything, as with a revised tome system, but I'd be happy just avoiding the excessive constraints of Books or the item bloat of the HW Relic grind, myself.

[strawberrycake]

My issue with the tome solution, isn't that it doesn't work, or that I do not have choice. When you take the tome solution, yes I have the physical choice to do as I please to grind, my issue is the community at large. The community will always dictate what is easiest and only do that when you have the *choice* to gain tomes from anything, conversely, if you make the solution to gaining your relic require the bare minimum, it doesn't matter what you do.

I want the progression to getting my relic to be fun and meaningful content, solo or with the community, I want it to be something memorable. But if we go the tome route, theres no way to keep the community at least on NA, from gravitating to the easiest farmable thing and that being the only way, or the means of me getting my weapon being a braindead non-grind for the sake of appealing to the lowest common denominator.

My personal Solution is creating involved zone or world based content, similar to Zadnor and Bozja and Eureka, and having this Relic Step start at least at the X.1 of each patch, then at the X.X.5 of each patch. they introduce the alternative and it's just 1500 tomes, and requires no work for those who do not want to grind. I feel it's fairest approach and makes it so that gaining the relic later if you were not around for the Zone/instance grind is still easy.

[Shurrikhan]

My issue with the tome solution, isn't that it doesn't work, or that I do not have choice. When you take the tome solution, yes I have the physical choice to do as I please to grind, my issue is the community at large. The community will always dictate what is easiest and only do that when you have the *choice* to gain tomes from anything.

This is true of any and all 'choice', though. If a job is badly underpowered, it becomes a "non-choice". If a job is actually/significantly overpowered, it makes those it competes with "non-choices". The same goes for content and their efficiencies. If a few significantly outstrip the rest, they become the only choices.

But that's not a reason, necessarily, to remove all choice and make everyone do A, B, and C in precise rotation, especially given that such starves queues for those who run ahead or behind without any other options to fall back on. Just as that's not a reason to have only one job per role.

That's just a reason to actually balance the damned choices. Which we should be doing anyways, regardless of whether it's just for Relics or for the broader game.

[strawberrycake]

This is true of any and all 'choice', though. If a job is badly underpowered, it becomes a "non-choice". If a job is actually/significantly overpowered, it makes those it competes with "non-choices". The same goes for content and their efficiencies. If a few significantly outstrip the rest, they become the only choices.

But that's not a reason, necessarily, to remove all choice and make everyone do A, B, and C in precise rotation, especially given that such starves queues for those who run ahead or behind without any other options to fall back on. Just as that's not a reason to have only one job per role.

That's just a reason to actually balance the damned choices. Which we should be doing anyways, regardless of whether it's just for Relics or for the broader game.

I agree with this, this is a more nuanced approach, I just don't trust SE to take this approach. I also feel this is too systematic, it's like I'm opting into a system of the game with no real soul to it. Of the many issues I have with the EW relic grind, Hildabrande is very much one of them, it just isn;t fun for me, and yes this is subjective. But with this system SE will have to make a VERY compelling story to prop up everyone doing savage, ex or whatever else as a means to get our relic, the content still wouldn't feel memorable, it'll feel like another day in XIV because then we'd look at the state of the balance, the state of the games content, and if it was any fun when done for more then it's initial reasons.

And yes one could, just improve it all, but if it were that easy I don't think we'd be here right now.

[Raikai]

The OP's idea is pretty good honestly, but I feel they need to step up the 'glow' effect for those weapons like they did with some of the Criterion glows. Speaking from my subjective experience, I almost prefer the matte weapons anyway because the glows are not that interesting lol.

[Nezerius]

Fair enough. My point, though, was just that whether players can bank ahead of new relic steps or not comes down to a very arbitrary design decision that, yes, XIV could as easily flip the switch on as leave settled. There's plenty else they've changed in that regard. Accessories used to be usable by all, to the point that players said they always would. Overnight, they weren't. We had a consistent inclusion of Exploratory Missions for 3 expansions in a row (Diadem, Eureka, Bozja). Then we didn't.

I.e., just because an issue exists under a current arbitrary circumstance does not mean that even tradition/stagnation-loving XIV must maintain that issue. As such the complaint seemed an odd one to me among a thread specifically on different approaches to Relics.

Which goes right back to what I mentioned in my most recent post, SE changing things if they feel like the result would be significant enough. Diadem was reworked multiple times, up to its current relatively okay state as a gathering zone for the Ishgard Restoration. The playerbase will always be split on whether Eureka or Bozja were good or bad content, ultimately leading to SE being cautious about adding new exploratory missions. This type of split hasn't really been seen about the tomestone system at its core, with the complaints mainly being about the limit of the weekly cap.

The accessories thing was hardly an overnight thing either. This was an ongoing issue during a large part of Heavensward, with more and more tanks deciding to equip Slaying accessories instead of Fending ones, opting for more dps over more health. SE didn't do anything major about this until the release of Stormblood.

But alrighty. Let's say they likewise break the mold by adding a new granular currency, which they've only done once outside of the addition of PvP and Hunts. Instead of messing with any tomestones or thereby needing to correct any longstanding issues in reward balance for that broader system, we just add a new currency tab for Relics, complete up to 4 separate currencies therein for their different steps. In that way, again, nothing can be pre-banked, but we avoid the inventory bloat issues and don't have to return to Hyrstmill to ask how bright our light is glowing as not to risk overcapping a stage's progress, etc.

Personally, I would like that we could progress anything from anything, as with a revised tome system, but I'd be happy just avoiding the excessive constraints of Books or the item bloat of the HW Relic grind, myself.

Huh? The NPC gave you a key item that could be used to show your relic's progress. You only had to return to Hyrstmill to proceed to the next step.

While I personally don't think the previous relic's inventory bloat issues are as severe as you make it sound, I'd obviously welcome having relic-specific items being moved to a currency tab. That's just a straight up QoL change, no debate about it. However, it's clear that SE is hesitant to adding too much to the currency tab as it currently is. They'd have to significant rework this tab to show a larger amount of currencies first.

[Shurrikhan]

Huh? The NPC gave you a key item that could be used to show your relic's progress..

Just a hypothetical example. Though I had forgotten it was a key item instead of a space-taking item. (I had meant it to be an example of facing either either inconvenience or bloat, but had forgotten that it, unlike the spendable materials, didn't take up space.)

Though I'm not sure we could just Key Item-ize exchangeable/spendable items in order to thereby avoid item bloat for the actual Relic-specific materials/currencies/resources. Hmm.

While I personally don't think the previous relic's inventory bloat issues are as severe as you make it sound, I'd obviously welcome having relic-specific items being moved to a currency tab. That's just a straight up QoL change, no debate about it.

To be clear, my largest issue is just with the fact that unique Relic progression items means either relatively small choice sets (which still, and perhaps even more noticeably, require balance between those options) or the collective set of reward-bearing content must include rather large loot tables with varying drop rates for each to provide any further flexibility, which can then, yes, feel kinda bloated.

I therefore prefer simply using rotating and intervalic reward increases (e.g., "Light rotations" and to funnel player participation and, if needed, rapidly rebalance rewards. And, much like you mentioned, it's just a lot neater and more convenient to have slightly fewer and more obvious currencies in play that can also be more easily tracked.

They'd have to significant rework this tab to show a larger amount of currencies first.

Luckily, each time we added an additional currency, first with Wolf's Den then The Hunt and finally with ShB FATEs, it hasn't seemed to present any issue.

Personally, I'd like also to move the FATEs currency over to the actual FATEs pane instead, which would keep the pane from getting excessively tall even when adding the Relics section, but /shrug.

[Ayche]

I am sure when 5.3 hit and a LOT of old players took the plunge again and returned to the game, the need for an obvious "back stop" weapon become apparent.
You could get the base ShB relic for just some poetics, making it a very convenient way to jump from a 430 weapon all the way to 485, essentially solving a lot of gearing problems for returning and new players. Whatever you lose in the aspiration value of the relic weapon by forgoing its role as the long grind weapon was probably easily made up by the fact that people could just ... get on with the story without jumping through the weapon acquisition hoops.

This is an old blind spot in the gearing system that I have wondered why it hasn't been solved earlier. Dungeon sets work as a backstop for anything but weapons. If you are short on gil, you can be out of luck how to get a real catch up weapon to get to every final story content. In that situation, having a weapon you can get by just spamming dungeons and roulettes for 1500 tomestones is very feasible, the player probably gets that passively by just catching up on content.