A Different Approach to Relics

[ty_taurus]

When it comes to the topic of relic grinds, we've seen a lot of back and forth between different groups of players: those who feel that the grind is an important part of FFXIV's encouragement to continue playing and/or that the Endwalker relic feels undeserved, and those who appreciate receiving something of value without needing to invest in a huge time sink. And while I'm personally of the opinion that we already have tomestone weapons that fill that purpose currently, I also think there's another way we could go about approaching the relic regardless of whether or not its connected to exploration content, and I want to outline this concept below to gauge thoughts on the matter.

First, each relic step will require some amount of a new item per step. You trade this item into a specific vendor to forge your new weapon. These items can be obtained in the following ways:
1. Engage in the new exploration content in some fashion, where each step is obtained through different methods within the exploration zone.
2. All of these items for each step can be purchased with the following currencies:
- Tomestones
- Bicolor Gems
- Wolf Marks
- Sacks of Nuts
- Variant Potshards
The amount of time required to obtain any job's relic each step is relatively small, even when grinding them out through the exploration content, however, each relic obtained this way is matte, meaning it has no particle effects.

Every relic from each step can be made into a sparkly weapon through a much longer, more intense grind, but there is no stat advantage to the sparkly version of the weapon. It is the same item level with the same stats. The particle effects, in this case, are the reward for engaging in the grind. Now, there may be multiple steps that use the same weapon model, but the colors of the weapon would change, as well as what particle effects are applied to the sparkly version of each step.

If you have forged the sparkly version of each of a job's relic weapons, you will get a special title associated with that job, and each job has a different title as a bonus reward for engaging with the more intense grind at every stage of your weapon, and there can also be one final title if you obtained all titles from every job.

That concludes the summary of my proposition. TLDR: The weapon is easy to obtain, but the grind is associated with giving your weapon particle effects, with the extra reward of special titles for getting every sparkly weapon for a job.

[TaleraRistain]

Why worry about all that? Just let people have the choice if they want to do a grind or they want to have an easier path. Same reward. Those who want the grind can do the grind. I'd definitely go down that path because I find it fun. And then those where the current tomestone setup works can choose that path.

If the issue is staying busy, there's no need for separate paths. It's only when someone wants to exclude others from it as "less deserving" that you have a need for something like that.

[ty_taurus]

Why worry about all that? Just let people have the choice if they want to do a grind or they want to have an easier path. Same reward. Those who want the grind can do the grind. I'd definitely go down that path because I find it fun. And then those where the current tomestone setup works can choose that path.

If the issue is staying busy, there's no need for separate paths. It's only when someone wants to exclude others from it as "less deserving" that you have a need for something like that.

There are people who want something that requires a lot of time and effort to earn. If you have an alternate route to get there that's considerably faster and easier, even if you are willing to take the harder road for the sake of fun, the fact that you could've just taken the easy route does not make that choice feel good.

Imagine if we took The Necromancer title, and made it so that if you complete floors 51-60 of Palace of the Dead 50 times, you get the title. You still get the title if you Solo Palace of the Dead all the way up to floor 200. Do you think someone earning the title the hard way would feel good about that? There is a level of prestige to it because it's hard to obtain. If you can otherwise just have it handed to you for little effort, then what's the point? Or what about if we spun it this way. Let's say you sell toasters for a living, and your boss promises you a bonus every month if you're able to sell over 300 toasters that month, but he'll also give that bonus to anyone who clocks in on time every day, and those are the same bonuses and do not stack together. How enthusiastic would you be about trying to sell 300 toasters?

That's why the suggestion I'm talking about involves having a cosmetic reward for the grind. You can get the stats with ease, but the particle effects are the reward for going beyond and doing something more than what was asked of you.

[TaleraRistain]

There are people who want something that requires a lot of time and effort to earn. If you have an alternate route to get there that's considerably faster and easier, even if you are willing to take the harder road for the sake of fun, the fact that you could've just taken the easy route does not make that choice feel good.

Imagine if we took The Necromancer title, and made it so that if you complete floors 51-60 of Palace of the Dead 50 times, you get the title. You still get the title if you Solo Palace of the Dead all the way up to floor 200. Do you think someone earning the title the hard way would feel good about that? There is a level of prestige to it because it's hard to obtain. If you can otherwise just have it handed to you for little effort, then what's the point? Or what about if we spun it this way. Let's say you sell toasters for a living, and your boss promises you a bonus every month if you're able to sell over 300 toasters that month, but he'll also give that bonus to anyone who clocks in on time every day, and those are the same bonuses and do not stack together. How enthusiastic would you be about trying to sell 300 toasters?

That's why the suggestion I'm talking about involves having a cosmetic reward for the grind. You can get the stats with ease, but the particle effects are the reward for going beyond and doing something more than what was asked of you.

A grind is still taking a lot of time and effort to earn. I have done every ARR relic and advocate for changes to the book step because there's no reason others have to go through that like I did for the reward. Someone else's path to a reward doesn't change the work someone else put in.

You want to cut off another person's access to a shiny weapon not just because you want to work hard at it but, like I said, because you feel others are less deserving if they didn't do it the same way you did. And like it or not, the reason this relic has been so popular is because is it accessible and doesn't engage in that sort of exclusion. I love the old grinds. I want a choice of a grind back. I'm just fine if someone else can get it with tomes if that's their choice of how to go about things.

[ty_taurus]

A grind is still taking a lot of time and effort to earn. I have done every ARR relic and advocate for changes to the book step because there's no reason others have to go through that like I did for the reward. Someone else's path to a reward doesn't change the work someone else put in.

You want to cut off another person's access to a shiny weapon not just because you want to work hard at it but, like I said, because you feel others are less deserving if they didn't do it the same way you did. And like it or not, the reason this relic has been so popular is because is it accessible and doesn't engage in that sort of exclusion. I love the old grinds. I want a choice of a grind back. I'm just fine if someone else can get it with tomes if that's their choice of how to go about things.

Alright, then let's take it up a notch. Why spend tomestones at all? What if someone doesn't have time to grind up the tomestones? Relic weapons should just be given to you. Would that appeal to you more? All you have to do is talk to an NPC and have your job at level 90, but having your job at level 90 also requires a grind... So why don't we remove leveling altogether. When Dawntrail releases, every player will start at level 100, that way all level content becomes completely accessible. No one has to worry about being left out of any job's relic weapon at all.

And while we're at it, why don't we do that for other things players are currently "excluded" from. All titles are automatically unlocked for all players. Want to be the Necromancer but don't have time to do Palace of the Dead? Now, you're no longer locked out. We can fully unlock all minions and mounts as well. Do you want a minion that someone else had to spend $30 for? You should just have it. We don't want you feeling excluded from having that content. Same with all the mogstation items. Honestly, isn't the entire concept of gearing inandof itself exclusionary? When a new patch drops, why don't we get all the new pieces of gear mailed to us, including all the new tomestone gear and raiding gear. When 6.4 dropped, we should've had all 660 gear mailed to us along with the 665 weapon. Think about it. How many people are being excluded from raiding gear because they don't have the time to raid, or maybe just don't want to have to work that hard for something that might be a really cool piece of glamour for them?

You know how long it took me to get the Al-iklil mount from Bozja? How many players would love that mount but don't have the time to grind out the Bozja RNG or the skills to win any of the duels for the field notes? Or what about the Astrope mount? How is that fair that players are expected to do 2000 mentor roulettes if they want to ride on a pretty pegasus?

[Saraide]

Alright, then let's take it up a notch. Why spend tomestones at all? What if someone doesn't have time to grind up the tomestones? Relic weapons should just be given to you. Would that appeal to you more? All you have to do is talk to an NPC and have your job at level 90, but having your job at level 90 also requires a grind... So why don't we remove leveling altogether. When Dawntrail releases, every player will start at level 100, that way all level content becomes completely accessible. No one has to worry about being left out of any job's relic weapon at all.

And while we're at it, why don't we do that for other things players are currently "excluded" from. All titles are automatically unlocked for all players. Want to be the Necromancer but don't have time to do Palace of the Dead? Now, you're no longer locked out. We can fully unlock all minions and mounts as well. Do you want a minion that someone else had to spend $30 for? You should just have it. We don't want you feeling excluded from having that content. Same with all the mogstation items. Honestly, isn't the entire concept of gearing inandof itself exclusionary? When a new patch drops, why don't we get all the new pieces of gear mailed to us, including all the new tomestone gear and raiding gear. When 6.4 dropped, we should've had all 660 gear mailed to us along with the 665 weapon. Think about it. How many people are being excluded from raiding gear because they don't have the time to raid, or maybe just don't want to have to work that hard for something that might be a really cool piece of glamour for them?

You know how long it took me to get the Al-iklil mount from Bozja? How many players would love that mount but don't have the time to grind out the Bozja RNG or the skills to win any of the duels for the field notes? Or what about the Astrope mount? How is that fair that players are expected to do 2000 mentor roulettes if they want to ride on a pretty pegasus?

Oh no people would be expected the play the content they find fun then instead of having the game tell them what to do. What a nightmare!

[TaleraRistain]

snip

Now you're just being silly. Most of the things you've mentioned have never had a different way to do them. The cat is already out of the bag with relics. We're very unlikely to go back to a completely restricted version. So the idea is compromise. Let people take the path to the relic in a way that will require the amount of effort on their part that they desire. The grind is there. We can do it. But the tomestone option will also be there for those who like the new style. It still gives us something to do, which is the main complaint I've seen about the lack of a relic grind.

[fulminating]

A...

I want to cut off their access to getting the long term grind rewards if they’re not going to grind, yes.

I don’t think the lack of a long term goal in endwalker is going to reflect particularly well come even 7.0. If the sheer number of jobs is too daunting, why not take a leaf from literally last expansion and have one time steps or the first relic requiring 8 tokens but subsequent only taking one? Why not have the items drop into inventory at a low% rate in v&c or from island sanctuary venture things to encourage engagement? Or mhach/ivalice/nier alliance raids if they want to encourage people to queue those. Or just alliance/guildhest/etc roulette when queued with the relevant weapon? The relic weapon as a concept is such an easy opportunity to force engagement with content areas that it’s incredible they’re not leveraging it. It’s not as if the complaints about anaemic content only turned up in 6.4, they’ve been there since almost the start of the expansion, albeit quieter.

I think it may be the case that the relic has a high level of engagement, but so does ew summoner. If it’s free there’s no reason not to pick it up, and it’s not even digging into the weekly tome allowance.

Next expansion, each relic will be ~6000 poetics. Come on now.

[TaleraRistain]

I want to cut off their access to getting the long term grind rewards if they’re not going to grind, yes.

I don’t think the lack of a long term goal in endwalker is going to reflect particularly well come even 7.0. If the sheer number of jobs is too daunting, why not take a leaf from literally last expansion and have one time steps or the first relic requiring 8 tokens but subsequent only taking one? Why not have the items drop into inventory at a low% rate in v&c or from island sanctuary venture things to encourage engagement? Or mhach/ivalice/nier alliance raids if they want to encourage people to queue those. Or just alliance/guildhest/etc roulette when queued with the relevant weapon? The relic weapon as a concept is such an easy opportunity to force engagement with content areas that it’s incredible they’re not leveraging it. It’s not as if the complaints about anaemic content only turned up in 6.4, they’ve been there since almost the start of the expansion, albeit quieter.

I think it may be the case that the relic has a high level of engagement, but so does ew summoner. If it’s free there’s no reason not to pick it up, and it’s not even digging into the weekly tome allowance.

Next expansion, each relic will be ~6000 poetics. Come on now.

They would be grinding. Just not in the same way. They'd grind their tomestones in whatever content they wanted to gain those in.

My personal preference is something more like ARR and HW questlines. I was hoping for that for EW. I even was kind of disappointed with the one time aspect of ShB steps because I'm one of the crazies that enjoys that checklist aspect. I would have done that one time step on all of my relics.

I just don't feel that now that another option has been presented, everyone needs to be forced into that. I've always advocated for choices in relic content, which is why I bristled against the Eureka and Bozja design, not to mention the FOMO aspects of those whereas ARR and HW remain much more accessible expansions later. So I really don't care if someone else gets their relic and their grind is tomestones.

Could even be something like being presented the quest and being told you can go find the items yourself through this specific content, or Rowena's rep conveniently has a supply for large amounts of tomestones each. It's really not that dissimilar than being able to shortcut your next relic after the one time steps.

[Absimiliard]

- Wolf Marks

And just like that, you've lost about 80% of the playerbase. A lot of them reaaaalllyyy hate PvP, my dude. Putting a relic weapon step behind it would cause the lion's share to just not bother with it.