How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[ty_taurus]

I just can't stand this double standard where no one yells at a Warrior asking for a new attack to spend Beast Gauge on, but a healer asks for another attack and it's "I play healer to HEAL. If I wanted to DPS, I'd play a DPS" Bet. I play tank to TANK! If I wanted to DPS, I'd play DPS.

[LilimoLimomo]

I just can't stand this double standard where no one yells at a Warrior asking for a new attack to spend Beast Gauge on, but a healer asks for another attack and it's "I play healer to HEAL. If I wanted to DPS, I'd play a DPS" Bet. I play tank to TANK! If I wanted to DPS, I'd play DPS.

Tanks already have a full arsenal of attacks. One more attack doesn't move the needle any more than giving a DPS one more attack. But if you give a healer two more attacks you've nearly doubled their offensive kit.

And this last part is just my subjective opinion, but I think that's because tanks in FF14 are already so lacking in mechanical identity that they are little more than DPS with a bigger health pool and some defensive cooldowns. Their fight was lost long ago, while healers still have a chance.

[ty_taurus]

Tanks already have a full arsenal of attacks. One more attack doesn't move the needle any more than giving a DPS one more attack. But if you give a healer two more attacks you've nearly doubled their offensive kit.

And this last part is just my subjective opinion, but I think that's because tanks in FF14 are already so lacking in mechanical identity that they are little more than DPS with a bigger health pool and some defensive cooldowns. Their fight was lost long ago, while healers still have a chance.


I would personally say that the tanks in this game have the same DPS/tank mechanics ratio as RDM has DPS/heal mechanics ratio. It's low. There is not much that a tank does that is different than a DPS.

Healers, on the other hand, actually have a mechanical identity.

I love using 2 AoE heals in a 4 minute dungeon boss fight as my mechanical identity because that's how infrequently many dungeon bosses actually deal damage to the party. I've had to have surgery on my thumb because of the damage mashing Dosis has done to it for the 82 casts of it I perform during that 4 minute fight, but I'm sure glad I got to use Kerachole twice.

[LilimoLimomo]

I love using 2 AoE heals in a 4 minute dungeon boss fight as my mechanical identity because that's how infrequently many dungeon bosses actually deal damage to the party. I've had to have surgery on my thumb because of the damage mashing Dosis has done to it for the 82 casts of it I perform during that 4 minute fight, but I'm sure glad I got to use Kerachole twice.

With respect, you're telling me this like we're not on the same page about that being a problem. We just have different ideas of how to solve it.

Unrelated to anything in this debate, as someone with hand and wrist issues myself, I strongly recommend you don't mash, especially if it's resulting in medical issues. The GCD is 2.5 seconds, so only press it that often. Your GCD slipping is not worth your physical well-being. Especially in a dungeon. Regardless of which side either of us takes in this silly debate over what will make our free-time game more fun, you're a living person and I care about your well-being.

[ty_taurus]

With respect, you're telling me this like we're not on the same page about that being a problem. We just have different ideas of how to solve it.

Unrelated to anything in this debate, as someone with hand and wrist issues myself, I strongly recommend you don't mash, especially if it's resulting in medical issues. The GCD is 2.5 seconds, so only press it that often. Your GCD slipping is not worth your physical well-being. Especially in a dungeon. Regardless of which side either of us takes in this silly debate over what will make our free-time game more fun, you're a living person and I care about your well-being.

And I don't believe your solution will make a dent in that problem, at least not for the people who actually have a problem with the lack of healing, because you will never be able to demand enough healing at all difficulty levels to demand frequent enough healing that the atrocious DPS options the healers suffer will no longer be an issue without making the role unplayable for probably most of the current healer population.

[Saraide]

With respect, you're telling me this like we're not on the same page about that being a problem. We just have different ideas of how to solve it.

Unrelated to anything in this debate, as someone with hand and wrist issues myself, I strongly recommend you don't mash, especially if it's resulting in medical issues. The GCD is 2.5 seconds, so only press it that often. Your GCD slipping is not worth your physical well-being. Especially in a dungeon. Regardless of which side either of us takes in this silly debate over what will make our free-time game more fun, you're a living person and I care about your well-being.

You're not on the same page. You have been arguing against ty's point for the entire thread. You're being told that your solution is not realistic and doesnt change anything in the first place. You're arguing against that with questionable levels of experience.

[TheDustyOne]

Tanks already have a full arsenal of attacks. One more attack doesn't move the needle any more than giving a DPS one more attack. But if you give a healer two more attacks you've nearly doubled their offensive kit.

And this last part is just my subjective opinion, but I think that's because tanks in FF14 are already so lacking in mechanical identity that they are little more than DPS with a bigger health pool and some defensive cooldowns. Their fight was lost long ago, while healers still have a chance.

That seems incredibly unfair then to Scholars who used to have a lot more DPS skills. Now if they ask for those back, suddenly they're asking for "triple the amount they currently have". If SCH never lost those, would you suddenly be okay with them having another DPS skill? And if it's okay for Scholars to have extra attacks in that scenario, why is WHM and AST suddenly not allowed to have that?

Tanks are also about 50/50 in DPS/defensives, the ratio is a lot higher than you realise. Aggro wasn't all that meaningful when it was there beyond the opener or someone forgetting Diversion, so it's loss wasn't felt all that painfully for most tanks. The loss of positioning is seen as more of a problem, and that's a fight design issue, not a kit issue.

DPSing as healers is ultimately going to be necessary no matter how much healing is required, and the lax healing requirements in casual content means that someone doing that with a modicum of skill behind them is going to get bored quickly. The solution is to make the downtime engaging in some way rather than forcing savage-level healing on the healer who can't keep up with that. DPS is the obvious answer because it is always useful, and buffs are just indirect DPS.

Also healers having mechanical identity... SCH and SGE say otherwise. The two are so close in design that I have the same buttons on the same places on my hotbar. Tanks have a similar issue, especially between WAR and DRK, but you don't see nearly as many people complaining about those 2 compared to the healers. WAR at least plays differently enough in how frequently it uses and generates Beast Gauge compared to Blood Gauge, while DRK is extremely oGCD heavy and requires rapid inputs. That alone gives a separate feel for the jobs.

[LilimoLimomo]

That seems incredibly unfair then to Scholars who used to have a lot more DPS skills. Now if they ask for those back, suddenly they're asking for "triple the amount they currently have". If SCH never lost those, would you suddenly be okay with them having another DPS skill?

That's a fair point! And in my opinion, I do think there should be more disparity between classes. If half the healers given a more involved damage rotation to keep their thumbs busy, I think that would be fine. I just don't agree with a solution that gives that to everyone, because not everyone wants that.

And if it's okay for Scholars to have extra attacks in that scenario, why is WHM and AST suddenly not allowed to have that?

Because many healers don't want this functionality, so I oppose it becoming a universal feature.

Tanks are also about 50/50 in DPS/defensives, the ratio is a lot higher than you realise.

I'm talking about gameplay, not just counting the buttons. Frequency of using defensive parts of the kit are meaningfully lower compared to the DPS parts.

Aggro wasn't all that meaningful when it was there beyond the opener or someone forgetting Diversion, so it's loss wasn't felt all that painfully for most tanks.

I'll agree that I don't think tanking reached its potential, but aggro was something, replaced with nothing.

DPSing as healers is ultimately going to be necessary no matter how much healing is required, and the lax healing requirements in casual content means that someone doing that with a modicum of skill behind them is going to get bored quickly. The solution is to make the downtime engaging in some way rather than forcing savage-level healing on the healer who can't keep up with that. DPS is the obvious answer because it is always useful, and buffs are just indirect DPS.

I've addressed this earlier in the thread so I will respectfully acknowledge your thoughts. If you'd like to see mine they're earlier in the thread, but no pressure.

Also healers having mechanical identity... SCH and SGE say otherwise. The two are so close in design that I have the same buttons on the same places on my hotbar. Tanks have a similar issue, especially between WAR and DRK, but you don't see nearly as many people complaining about those 2 compared to the healers.

I meant that healers overall have a mechanical identity, not the individual roles. Because I agree: healers blur together and overlap too much. And I also agree that tanks have the same problem, which I have complained about numerous times on these forums ^^.

[TheDustyOne]

That's a fair point! And in my opinion, I do think there should be more disparity between classes. If half the healers given a more involved damage rotation to keep their thumbs busy, I think that would be fine. I just don't agree with a solution that gives that to everyone, because not everyone wants that.

While I do sympathize with someone that wants a simple kit, a single nuke + DoT is not a good kit. Warrior is a good example of a simple kit and that's what WHM should try to match in complexity.

Because many healers don't want this functionality, so I oppose it becoming a universal feature.

Ty I believe had a survey that asked jobs what they wanted most. 70+% Healers outside AST wanted more DPS buttons, which instead wanted more damage buffs. That last one is ultimately what would better suit those players.

I'm talking about gameplay, not just counting the buttons. Frequency of using defensive parts of the kit are meaningfully lower compared to the DPS parts.

The gameplay is down to the fight design. We need more incoming busters and raidwides for the tank defensives to be more in play, which also in turn makes the healers more integral. It's a fight design issue, not a kit issue. But otherwise I agree there.

I'll agree that I don't think tanking reached its potential, but aggro was something, replaced with nothing.

I don't disagree honestly, I wouldn't mind aggro returning, but it would have to be rebalanced to where it becomes an integral part of tanking instead of opener only.

I've addressed this earlier in the thread so I will respectfully acknowledge your thoughts. If you'd like to see mine they're earlier in the thread, but no pressure.

A lot of others have already said what I wanted to say, so I'm not too worried about responding to what you said earlier because I think it'd just be a repeat of other sentiments.

I meant that healers overall have a mechanical identity, not the individual roles. Because I agree: healers blur together and overlap too much. And I also agree that tanks have the same problem, which I have complained about numerous times on these forums ^^.

I can agree at least. I've had suggestions in the past on how to diversify healer kits on the healer forums. I liked the idea of AST going full time mage and fast-forwarding regens, snapshotting buffs to reapply them after they expire, etc.

[Raikai]

That's a fair point! And in my opinion, I do think there should be more disparity between classes. If half the healers given a more involved damage rotation to keep their thumbs busy, I think that would be fine. I just don't agree with a solution that gives that to everyone, because not everyone wants that.

Okay, they want to keep healer dps simple, and I get the reasoning... but why does it need to be the copy paste nuke+dot for the filler actions for everyone?

Can one of the healers not have a dot and to make up for it, a complex card system to be actively used every 30s and not just in the burst windows?
Can one of the healers have a longer cast on their nukes again (with corresponding potency) since they have Ruin 2 to create double weaving windows and movement?
Can one of the healers not have a dot and have a combo system instead for filler complexity?
Can one of the healers stay as the current dps model for a simpler option?