Dawntrail needs to better, not just more.

[SargeTheSeagull]

The last few weeks i've been trying to pin down exactly why i'm not as hyped for DT as I was for previous expansions. I think i've figured out why. DT doesn't look like it's going to improve upon anything (graphics update aside), just be more of what we have. Now i'm not saying that's bad, 14 is a pretty solid game and the graphics update is going to be massive, but let's be honest, EW has shown a few of the game's cracks.
You know what would really get my blood pumping? Yoshi P getting on stage at JP Fanfest and talking the whole time about improving 14's core. Stuff like gearing overhauls, healers getting more fun, FATE reworks, extreme 24 man raids, faster leveling, item level sync in certain duty finder stuff, glamour being non-job locked, sidequests giving tomestones at max level, customizable job animations, big job changes, duty roulette changes, UI improvements, portrait system fixes, or even letting you craft using materials in your retainers' inventories. Things that make FF14 better, not just more.

We know we're going to the new world. We know we're trying to find the city of gold. We know we're getting six zones, a town, a city, new fates and sidequests and raids. Can you tell us instead what is going to be new and exciting about them aside from visuals? Can the FATEs in a zone trigger a critical engagement or notorious monster? Do you get a zone themed glam set for doing every sidequest in a zone? Things like that would be dozens of times more exciting than spending an hour on stage rehashing things we already know.

[Asari5]

but visuals seem to be the only thing they can make... and they do a great job with that lol.

and the soundtrack. we will get really nice soundtracks agaim

[Deceptus]

but visuals seem to be the only thing they can make... and they do a great job with that lol.

and the soundtrack. we will get really nice soundtracks agaim

Our characters have literal pixels on their armor. . .

When they announce the 8man raid in Tokyo, we'll be excited for the name, sure. But I will also be able to say there and then, that there will be 4 bosses per tier, 3 tiers, and the third boss will drop legs, chest and an item that upgrades the tomestone weapon (along with the drop tables for the other bosses in the tier). Also, that the gear from the Savage raid tiers will be 730, 760, and 790 respectively. Because the formula is THAT strict, and THAT predictable, we can make these kinds of predictions with ease. In fact, I'll also predict that the 8.0 raids will drop 860, 890 and 920 gear, because why not, every other expansion's raids since Savage was made have been +130 from their equivalent in the previous expansion, so all we need to do is just add 130 as many times as is needed to get to where we're predicting for. Heck, assuming the game lives that long, you could predict that 15.0's raids will drop 1770, 1800 and 1830 gear, though you'd hope that SE would squish the itemlevels before we got to that point

And that gear will have the same exact boring stats we've had for 8+ years. Zero innovation because they either can't balance it properly or simply don't want to.

[Fatch38]

the sad truth is : most veterans already told to shake the formula before shadowbringer but things never changed so doubt it will ever happen.

but i totally agree with you, i don't know if it's just me getting older but the game hype me less and less as time goes, i don't even want to raid anymore (because gearing in that game is so stale and have no purpose when you know you'll get the gear more easily as time goes and you'll complete content easier by unsyncing it) i just login on tuesday and i can even get the tome cap in a single day just by doing DR, there is close to nothing to make me want to log everyday/more than twice a week.

the thing is : we are here with all these core problems because the community is more interested in fluff and visuals (simple facts when you see ppl getting overhyped just because you'll be able to have double layer dyes.... when older games than XIV like GW2 do better that's sad) and that's why we have more focus on mogstation for example than adding in game rewards, most events lacks reward/durability and most systems are left to rot (gold saucer has an update once by expansion and most of the time it's 1-2 orchestrion roll and a mount nothing else, achievements token seller haven't been update in the past 3 expansion, etc...)

another core problem : game is made in a way that you can have everything leveled on one character but yet you can gear up only one job at a time, the game clearly need a tome cap/weekly lockout by role.

ps : not my main language sorry if not totally clear

[Xephna]

the sad truth is : most veterans already told to shake the formula before shadowbringer but things never changed so doubt it will ever happen.

but i totally agree with you, i don't know if it's just me getting older but the game hype me less and less as time goes, i don't even want to raid anymore (because gearing in that game is so stale and have no purpose when you know you'll get the gear more easily as time goes and you'll complete content easier by unsyncing it) i just login on tuesday and i can even get the tome cap in a single day just by doing DR, there is close to nothing to make me want to log everyday/more than twice a week.

the thing is : we are here with all these core problems because the community is more interested in fluff and visuals (simple facts when you see ppl getting overhyped just because you'll be able to have double layer dyes.... when older games than XIV like GW2 do better that's sad) and that's why we have more focus on mogstation for example than adding in game rewards, most events lacks reward/durability and most systems are left to rot (gold saucer has an update once by expansion and most of the time it's 1-2 orchestrion roll and a mount nothing else, achievements token seller haven't been update in the past 3 expansion, etc...)

another core problem : game is made in a way that you can have everything leveled on one character but yet you can gear up only one job at a time, the game clearly need a tome cap/weekly lockout by role.

ps : not my main language sorry if not totally clear

Posts that I wish I can upvote 50 times.

[Atelier-Bagur]

What we're wishing is for a complete overhaul of FFXIV to appease our brains that grew tired of the same formula.

However Ive grown to accept the formula (somewhat) and Im low key hyped for Dawntrail. Tural interests me heavily cultural wise, the fact that we're moving on from any Ancient or Star Threatening levels of apocalypse (seemingly????) is the refresher I want for the feel of FFXIV.

I dont want a Shadowbringers 2.0 or and Endwalker 2.0 in terms of cosmic scale

[Jojoya]

What we're wishing is for a complete overhaul of FFXIV to appease our brains that grew tired of the same formula.

Not everyone has grown tired of the formula and would like to keep experiencing it.

Trying to get developers who are good at making one formula do a 180 and create an entirely new formula in the time it normally takes to create an expansion is a recipe for disaster.

Other games do exist. That's the best place to go when you want to experience a different formula.

[ForsakenRoe]

You can play other games if you are unhappy. You can also go outside.

What if they ARE playing other games? What if they find more enjoyment in those other games than FF14 provides, or will provide with DT? What if you took the example of this one person, and extrapolate to the whole playerbase and ask 'how many people are quitting and not actually coming back, because there's not enough reason to'? FF14 does not compete with just 'other games' in terms of 'where the player spends their time', but with all sources of entertainment, streaming, youtube, netflix, other hobbies. Saying 'if you don't like it go do something else' is so horrendously bad a take I cannot really express how bad it is in words

On a related note, the 'other MMO across the road' did their presentation's deep dive on new features, and had things like 'new 1-5 player scaling content which offers new avenue for progression/gearing' (we could get this with Criterion, but that requires SE to stop being so scared of their players actually getting gear), 'Reputations are now shared across all your alts', 'Item storage now shared across all your alts', 'crafting can take resources directly from the storage, instead of having to take them out of the storage and THEN craft', they have an actual Glamor/Transmog/whatever solution already and it will be improved in the next expansion so that you can unlock appearances regardless of your class (so you can unlock a Warrior appearance as a Mage or vice versa, reducing the number of farm-runs required), Achievements and Flight Paths (Teleport attunements for us) will be shared (reunlocking flying on an alt in FF14 is a pain, if you've ever had to do that). Oh, and cross realm Guilds (FCs in our terms, CWLS exists but kinda sucks in functionality). Some of these issues are mitigated here because we have 'play every job on one character' but some people want multiple characters for RP reasons etc, and some of these are not exclusive to one game or the other (the 'craft from bank directly' for example)

It almost feels like the shoe is on the other foot: at first, FFXIV was the 'underdog', who built a playerbase by acknowledging they messed up in the past, and listening to players, having strong dev-player communication avenues, and working hard to build up to a stable point. WOW was the 'unassailable king' who just did whatever they wanted regardless of how disliked by players it would be because 'they'll play anyway'. Now it feels like it's in reverse, WOW is making big steps in player-dev communications, addressing QOL issues players have like 'accountwide rep' and such following the relatively unmitigated disaster of Shadowlands, and FFXIV is just spinning it's wheels, doing the same content we've seen 3 times already (another deep dungeon, can't wait for a 4th version of Pomander of Steel/Strength woo), possibly because they think they're going to keep all of the 'WOW refugees' that came over. Still waters grow stagnant, and the same is true of gameplay. If we just get 'the same thing again with a new coat of paint', as we do with things like Orthos (which is already dead on my DC), then people will leave and a good number of them will not come back. The biggest cheers at FanFest, out of the two of them so far, were for things like Dye Channels, the new Limited Job, and FF16 crossover because they are new content



Semi-related, my FC's housing ward in Ishgard. Every zone has several (at least 25 across all wards) small houses free. I've never seen as many plots available as this, and we're about 8-10 months away from the expansion still so it'll either get worse, or everyone left (med/large plots) is 'sunk cost fallacy' trapped by SE's awful housing system design. Which is probably why they don't change it despite all the requests for it. People love to rip on the MOP final patch lasting over a year, but we're in the same situation, worse in fact, because at least that last patch for them gave them a new hard raid to progress. We'd have to go by 6.4's release date for an equal comparison (since we don't have an ultimate in 6.5) which makes it even longer a wait. 12+ months of P12S... no wonder I see so many prog parties for the ultimates in PF

Trying to get developers who are good at making one formula do a 180 and create an entirely new formula in the time it normally takes to create an expansion is a recipe for disaster.

They can have a solid 'core' formula, sure. The problem is that everything beyond that core is ALSO formulaic. We can consider the story and levelling as the 'core' that can stay untouched. New expansion, 10 levels, you get a new skill/trait every 2 levels, you get a dungeon at every odd level. Fine whatever. But, what if they experimented a bit and had, for example, the raid tier have 5 bosses instead of 4? What if the 24man had more than 4 bosses (this one's a great example, they could have had 5 bosses on this last one but they smushed Nymiea and Althyk into a doublebattle) What if they take Variant dungeons, as a formula, and had that apply to regular dungeons, such that the route is chosen sort-of randomly from one of 3 or 4 'routes', giving multiple permutations of the dungeon? Even if they keep it as only 'one route' in terms of geography, how we actually go from start to end on the map, the mechanics of the boss can be altered, like how in Variant dungeons the boss mechanics change based on which route you're on. We fight the very large ninja Au Ra in Mount Rokkon first, on every route (all 12), but she has 4 sets of mechanics to pull from based on which of those routes you're on (4 sets in 3 arenas). So something like that could be done for other dungeons. Ktisis Hyperwhatsit could have 3 'routes' based on who comes with you out of the Ancient Squad, Tower of Babil could have potentially more because they have so many more characters present in the raid to pull from (Magnai, Lyse, Cirina, Sadu).

Here's a quick example: Tower of Babil is a good one. When you do it in trusts, you have your team of you and three Scions, and the rest of the raid split off to do some other stuff after the second pack done, just before first boss. So instead, what if SE had that dungeon, where you go as a team of actual players, and one of the NPCs says 'hey I'll come with you players' (randomly chosen), and based on who comes along out of Magnai, Sadu, Lyse and Cirina, the mechanics of the bosses are different. This means that the replayability of the dungeons is increased because you're not necessarily going to get the same mechanics on every run. Maybe they could even include secret things, like maybe Sadu is very good at dealing damage so she helps make packs die faster, but Magnai axe-cleaves a wall open to reveal a shortcut past a pack so you don't have to fight it, speeding up the dungeon run by a roughly equal amount, but in a different way. And maybe Lyse punches a console to force a Magitek Barrier to drop instantly, allowing what is normally two pulls to be combined into one bigger wall-to-wall. Three ways to make the dungeon faster, each with unique 'flavor' and thematic to the characters

When they announce the 8man raid in Tokyo, we'll be excited for the name, sure. But I will also be able to say there and then, that there will be 4 bosses per tier, 3 tiers, and the third boss will drop legs, chest and an item that upgrades the tomestone weapon (along with the drop tables for the other bosses in the tier). Also, that the gear from the Savage raid tiers will be 730, 760, and 790 respectively. Because the formula is THAT strict, and THAT predictable, we can make these kinds of predictions with ease. In fact, I'll also predict that the 8.0 raids will drop 860, 890 and 920 gear, because why not, every other expansion's raids since Savage was made have been +130 from their equivalent in the previous expansion, so all we need to do is just add 130 as many times as is needed to get to where we're predicting for. Heck, assuming the game lives that long, you could predict that 15.0's raids will drop 1770, 1800 and 1830 gear, though you'd hope that SE would squish the itemlevels before we got to that point

[Jeeqbit]

What if they ARE playing other games?

Many people are.

the 'other MMO across the road' did their presentation's deep dive on new features, and had things like 'new 1-5 player scaling content which offers new avenue for progression/gearing'

It would be nice if Criterion dropped gear, but I think they are afraid of rendering 8-person savage irrelevant or shaking up the formula. I do think that if it just dropped tomestone augments each week that it would be alright. All of this would require Criterion to be released at a more consistent time like 8-person savage or alliance raids. Releasing two after the last raid tier makes all this rather pointless.

reunlocking flying on an alt in FF14 is a pain

I disagree. If you click the Aether Compass regularly on the way to each MSQ task and do any blue sidequest objectives on the way to an MSQ task, then you get all the Aether Currents almost effortlessly in most areas.

cross realm Guilds (FCs in our terms, CWLS exists but kinda sucks in functionality)

I agree that cross-world FCs seem a logical next-step, but judging by the Community Finder, they view CWLS as a sort of cross-world FC.

Some of these issues are mitigated here because we have 'play every job on one character'

Indeed, but most of the ideas would be welcome if they did happen.

WOW is making big steps in player-dev communications, addressing QOL issues players have

Yes, they are addressing issues better and going back to their roots of taking from other games, such as the flight system from Guild Wars or the mentor system and numerous story beats from this game such as the final steps of faith cutscene, Convocation Crystals and Hydaelyn. Whether that means their game is saved or not remains to be seen, but it seems a good sign that they are doing what used to make them successful in the past.

Personally, what I actually like about this game is that SE does their own thing rather than copying other games much. Aside from it starting on the basis of FF11 and WoW, they went in their own direction since, mostly listening to player feedback, rather than just blatantly ripping ideas from other games.

The closest you could get to them ripping anything is making Criterion in response to requests for a mythic-like system, but it still ended up having significant differences. You could also argue the constant pursuit of Eureka and Bozja content was because of how WoW had unique action and progression systems per expansion and this was done here in a contained environment like Eureka and Bozja with grindy systems like WoW.

another deep dungeon, can't wait for a 4th version of Pomander of Steel/Strength woo

They specifically said this deep dungeon will be different. Remember that for the previous deep dungeon, they said it would work exactly the same ahead of time, whereas this time they have made it extremely clear it will be different.

"New Plans for Deep Dungeons"
"So we are currently considering new plans for deep dungeons, but at the same time we are also considering brand new battle content plans as well."

I've never seen as many plots available as this

People from Balmung and other popular worlds would probably be interested in them if SE would move them over. Before the lottery system, they used to take up all the houses within minutes of the plots becoming available and transfer to plots before others could get them from less-desirable housing areas.

no wonder I see so many prog parties for the ultimates in PF

I think part of that is not feeling the need to rush to do it since it syncs giving it longevity and also because after a while, dungeons release better gear for ultimates making them easier. A lot of people like easy, so they will wait it out until they have the maximum advantage like this.

the raid tier have 5 bosses instead of 4?

This is why we get phase 2 in the last floor of savage. We could also make the argument that Ultimates are additional bosses because savage is required to unlock them.

What if they take Variant dungeons, as a formula, and had that apply to regular dungeons, such that the route is chosen sort-of randomly from one of 3 or 4 'routes', giving multiple permutations of the dungeon?

I think they should do this. There doesn't seem any reason not to, to be honest.

Because the formula is THAT strict, and THAT predictable, we can make these kinds of predictions with ease.

I think this is a good thing. When I buy the expansion or subscribe, I know what I am getting months in advance, so I can subscribe for 6 months. I don't need incentives to make me subscribe for 6 months. I just need certainty and SE provides it with how predictable they are.