Samurai Double Dot?

[SoloD007]

Kaeshi: Higanbana exists because three iaijutsu options exist, depending sen count, and Tsubame-gaeshi is intended as a follow-up to iaijutsu. That is all. Just because something exists doesn't mean it needs to be useful. Taking the example of healers, WHM has Cure 1 as Conjurer, and it's never useful as soon as Cure 2 is added to the kit, which again is not as useful as Afflatus Solace/Tetragrammaton as soon as they become available. Some skills exist to only be "traps" for people who don't understand a class, or use it in situations where they don't need to understand the class.

As for why Kaeshi:Higanbana is not useful, it comes down to resource generation opportunity cost for overall potency output. If I need to double dot something, like add phase in UCoB or DSR, it is less of a potency loss to generate (one sticker-use Higanbana)x2, than to waste a Tsubame on a second dot. Can this be fixed to make Kaeshi: Higanbana "useful"? I don't think it can with the current samurai kit and sen generation, unless they absolutely gut Kaeshi: Setsugekka's potency, which in turn affects every other situation where you use that skill instead, or make the sen generation opportunity cost much higher, which I don't see happening without ruining samurai's kit entirely --- like disallowing the same sen to be generated back-to-back, like PvP ninja's ninjutsu skills, which would absolutely destroy sam's PvE kit by at least breaking Meikyo, if not demanding changes kit-wide just to make this one niche case warrant utility.

I also think this is a non-issue, because nothing really prevents you from using Kaeshi: Higanbana, unless you actually care about situations where you have to play at least somewhat optimally, *and* have two targets --- which makes my UCoB example above meaningless since that fight has been cleared with 100+ deaths, so using Kaeshi: Higanbana once in a single phase is a not going to ruin your chances of clearing that fight.

I see your point and I somewhat agree with majority of what you said about sen generate, cost-opportunity. But I just cant get over a skill that is not utilized. Because I can see heaps of potential in Tsubame-gaeshi for Kaeshi: Higanbana. Maybe it's just me, I'm pretty fanatic about samurai haha.

[SoloD007]

Assuming SE intended for Kaeshi: Higanbana to be used in 2 target situations, then an idea I'd throw in for it would be this. Make Kaeshi: Higanbana deal more initial potency(the initial hit not the DoT). Then when Kaeshi: Higanbana goes off, whichever other target was hit with the normal Higanbana also takes that same amount of initial damage. Just enough damage that it's worth more than doing normal Higanbana twice and opting for Kaeshi: Setsugekka instead.

Mmmm... Not a bad idea...

[SoloD007]

I think why Kaeshi: Higanbana is currently a trap is one of because SE doesn't know it's just better to do normal Higanbana twice, they can't think of their own solution to make it a gain, or they can't really be bothered to think of something to make it a gain. I personally think Kaeshi: Higanbana should be adjusted to be a gain on 2 targets because I also think there's no downside to it. Unless there will never be a scenario where SAMs need to Higanbana 2 different targets in a future Savage/Ultimate content. In that case I don't think they should be bothered to adjust Kaeshi: Higanbana.

Yeah, that makes sense... Someone did mention in this thread before about making Kaeshi: Higanbana an AOE DoT. At the time, i thought it's somewhat a good idea with a slight flaw of not really needed during mob pulls but yeah, I can't of anything better to be honest haha so, I'm in a dilemma too about Kaeshi: Higabana.

[Rongway]

I can see heaps of potential in Tsubame-gaeshi for Kaeshi: Higanbana. Maybe it's just me, I'm pretty fanatic about samurai haha.

There isn't any potential in it. It is mathematically a damage loss over Kaeshi:Setsugekka in all cases.

Here is an updated table with current potencies based on this SAM FAQ answer from the Balance regarding this topic:


The green and yellow cells in the Kaeshi:Higanbana case where it looks like it pulls ahead or ties aren't real because the damage from Higanbana is a DoT. The Kaeshi:Setsugekka case is ahead from the moment of Kaeshi:Setsugekka onward. This is even before considering the autocrit on Setsugekka and Kaeshi:Setsugekka.

[AsiTsurugi]

I see your point and I somewhat agree with majority of what you said about sen generate, cost-opportunity. But I just cant get over a skill that is not utilized. Because I can see heaps of potential in Tsubame-gaeshi for Kaeshi: Higanbana. Maybe it's just me, I'm pretty fanatic about samurai haha.

I can relate to being passionate about samurai; I am the same way about returning Kenki generation via positionals and Kaiten. But as far as Higanbana is concerned, I view it more as an opportunity to optimize in various situations, so Kaeshi: Higanbana's current state never crossed my mind because it's just a skill that exists that will likely not be good or will be too overpowered making Kaeshi: Setsugekka take its current "not used at all" spot, with no real middle ground. That being said, Flufferbut's suggestion about reapplying initial hit's potency on the other target seems intriguiging, but I haven't thought enough about it to have anything meaningful to add.

[ICountFrom0]

What if SAM got something like the Iron Jaw on bard, so that any time you inflict any DoT, all DoT timers are extended to a cap of 2x original duration.

[Shurrikhan]

What if SAM got something like the Iron Jaw on bard, so that any time you inflict any DoT, all DoT timers are extended to a cap of 2x original duration.

...You only have the one DoT, though, so unless you mean something very different from Iron Jaws, that would be wholly useless, except in that you'd then reapply Higan only at 1 minute, 3 minutes, 5 minutes, and 7 minutes.

Again, if you want Kaeshi: Higanbana and Kaeshi: Tenka Goken to actually see use in serious content, it'll still only be in multi-target situations, but you can make those feasible choices by just...

1. Returning Tenka Goken's increased damage to the first target struck.
   
   In 2-target situations, Tenka Goken currently has a ppgcd of 424.4 across HYHJG+Tg (6 GCDs) and Kaeshi:TG a ppgcd of 449.5 over its 7 GCDs, while Midare Setsugekka has a ppgcd of 440.7 over HYHJGHSKMsg (9 GCDs) and Kaeshi: Midare Setsugekka has a ppgcd of 492.7 over its 10 GCDs. Simply returning Tenka to something like 450 potency for the first target struck and 300 to each thereafter would make Tenka and Kaeshi: Tenka competitive in single-target.
   
   With the further buff below, though, that may overshoot slightly to make focus-targeting via using Midare instead in 2-target situations come at a slight cost (i.e., outright entice use of Tenka in 2-target).
   
   
2. Having Tsubame-Gaeshi's instead hold 6 charges, each regenerated over 20 seconds, and consume charge 1 each per Sen of the Iaijutsu thus repeated (1 charge for Kaeshi: Higan, 2 for Kaeshi: Tenka, 3 for Kaeshi: Midare).
   
   In this way, Kaeshi: Higanbana would only use up 20s of TG's recharge time, at which point the immediacy of a double-DoT atop a potential extra Kaeshi: Midare within the given fight can make it a rather viable choice.
   
   OR
   
   Have Tsubame-Gaeshi refund a portion of its cooldown if used to repeat an Iaijutsu of less than 3 Sen (e.g., for a resultant 30s for Higan, 45s for Tenka).
   
   That would just be a softer variation of the above.

[ICountFrom0]

...You only have the one DoT, though, so unless you mean something very different from Iron Jaws, that would be wholly useless, except in that you'd then reapply Higan only at 1 minute, 3 minutes, 5 minutes, and 7 minutes.

First post includes the idea of having two dots.
Folks are quick to shoot it down.
I add the idea of having the dots function as per iron jaw as well, so the dots are self extending instead of self replacing, to see if that would be enough to make the idea viable.

... but somehow, I lost you with my suggestion?

[HikariKurosawa]

Dots are not fun compared to double setsugekka on single target. The whole appealing thing about samurai single target is spamming as much setsugekka as possible. Using a tsubame cooldown on a dot is so much less exciting. even if we got another charge of tsubame, even if we had infinite charges of tsubame lol.

Even in AoE, I'd prefer for them to give us the AoE version of yukikaze that was featured in the endwalker preview, and have it transform the initial cast of higanbana into a conal aoe if used as the next action. Opposed to having tsubame turn higanbana into a conal aoe. It's just far more exciting to use tsubame on big damage abilities like tenka gouken or setsugekka.

The purpose kaeshi higanbana serves is to get us thinking about how abilities are used and what potencies are worth it. It's good as is and changing it would be an over-simplification of the combat system I think. Plenty of other jobs have abilities that are not worth using in any pve situation. Mainly healers, but there are others too. Using hyoton as a ninja is always a potency loss for example.

[Shurrikhan]

First post includes the idea of having two dots.
Folks are quick to shoot it down.
I add the idea of having the dots function as per iron jaw as well, so the dots are self extending instead of self replacing, to see if that would be enough to make the idea viable.

... but somehow, I lost you with my suggestion?

If applying one applies the other, too, then you still effectively have just one DoT action after your opener, just like Bard, from the 3rd GCD onward, has only one DoT action, Iron Jaws.

The appeal, yes, is lost on me. I also see no reason why you'd want to enforce Kaeshi: Higan even in single-target in the first place.