Samurai Double Dot?

[VictorSpoils]

I can see that reading is not your strong point, so may be you want to request someone to read what I wrote in its entirety and recite it back to you?

Actually spent a good time trying to figure what the point of that post was. That wall of text boiled down to "Here's a use in UCOB except actually no, it's still worthless." Try working on your communication skills if you meant to say something else.

[wereotter]

This logic is kind of baffling after how big of a deal it was to lose Kaiten. Cure 1 still gets used whereas Kaeshi: Higanbana never does because it's purportedly always a damage loss, making it fundamentally worthless. There would be no downside to giving it a purpose.

But the thing is he's not wrong here. Hyoton has been in the game since the very begining when ninja was added because there needed to be a two-mudra skill where the second mudra was Jin. It was only niche usable in PvP back in the day when being able to bind other players was useful, but in any real content it was always a DPS loss to use Hyoton over Raiton. Similarly now if on monk under perfect balance, I do two opo opo form ability and one coerl ability, I get celestial revolution as my blitz, which is always a DPS loss over having used rising phoenix or elixir field.

Square had to program something in to occur for both these scenarios, but not every outcome needs to be always usable or a good skill to use. Some are just there because they have to be in order not to soft lock a job if those skills are attempted to be used. Tsubame Geshi had to have an outcome programmed for every possible use case if the trigger for making it available was first using iajutsu, and doesn't mean that programmed outcome needs to always be something good or viable, but just that something had to sit in the code to be executed when that trigger is met.

[Rongway]

Square had to program something in to occur for both these scenarios, but not every outcome needs to be always usable or a good skill to use. Some are just there because they have to be in order not to soft lock a job if those skills are attempted to be used. Tsubame Geshi had to have an outcome programmed for every possible use case if the trigger for making it available was first using iajutsu, and doesn't mean that programmed outcome needs to always be something good or viable, but just that something had to sit in the code to be executed when that trigger is met.

Well, no.

From a completeness standpoint and a simplicity standpoint, yes, that case need to be handled and the most pattern-adherent way to do that is to include Kaeshi:Higanbana even though it's never worth using over Kaeshi:Setsugekka. However, if they wanted to they could remove the trap by simply programming Tsubame Gaeshi to ignore Higanbana so that it only becomes Kaeshi:Setsugekka or Kaeshi:Goken.

[nguyentri11]

I think why Kaeshi: Higanbana is currently a trap is one of because SE doesn't know it's just better to do normal Higanbana twice, they can't think of their own solution to make it a gain, or they can't really be bothered to think of something to make it a gain. I personally think Kaeshi: Higanbana should be adjusted to be a gain on 2 targets because I also think there's no downside to it. Unless there will never be a scenario where SAMs need to Higanbana 2 different targets in a future Savage/Ultimate content. In that case I don't think they should be bothered to adjust Kaeshi: Higanbana.

[SoloD007]

I think why Kaeshi: Higanbana is currently a trap is one of because SE doesn't know it's just better to do normal Higanbana twice, they can't think of their own solution to make it a gain, or they can't really be bothered to think of something to make it a gain. I personally think Kaeshi: Higanbana should be adjusted to be a gain on 2 targets because I also think there's no downside to it. Unless there will never be a scenario where SAMs need to Higanbana 2 different targets in a future Savage/Ultimate content. In that case I don't think they should be bothered to adjust Kaeshi: Higanbana.

Yeah, that makes sense... Someone did mention in this thread before about making Kaeshi: Higanbana an AOE DoT. At the time, i thought it's somewhat a good idea with a slight flaw of not really needed during mob pulls but yeah, I can't of anything better to be honest haha so, I'm in a dilemma too about Kaeshi: Higabana.

[Shurrikhan]

Probably the most you're going to get from an instantly repeated DoT via Kaeshi: Higanbana is two-target cleave, much like the best that could be had from Kaeshi: Tenka Goken.

Even then, though, you'd essentially need to have the CD of Tsubame Gaeshi vary with Sen consumed (e.g., 20s per Sen), so that the mere 2 GCDs spared of Kaeshi: Higan and 4-5 GCDs of Kaeshi: Tenka could actually compete, if only situationally.

[ICountFrom0]

What if SAM got something like the Iron Jaw on bard, so that any time you inflict any DoT, all DoT timers are extended to a cap of 2x original duration.

[Shurrikhan]

What if SAM got something like the Iron Jaw on bard, so that any time you inflict any DoT, all DoT timers are extended to a cap of 2x original duration.

...You only have the one DoT, though, so unless you mean something very different from Iron Jaws, that would be wholly useless, except in that you'd then reapply Higan only at 1 minute, 3 minutes, 5 minutes, and 7 minutes.

Again, if you want Kaeshi: Higanbana and Kaeshi: Tenka Goken to actually see use in serious content, it'll still only be in multi-target situations, but you can make those feasible choices by just...

1. Returning Tenka Goken's increased damage to the first target struck.
   
   In 2-target situations, Tenka Goken currently has a ppgcd of 424.4 across HYHJG+Tg (6 GCDs) and Kaeshi:TG a ppgcd of 449.5 over its 7 GCDs, while Midare Setsugekka has a ppgcd of 440.7 over HYHJGHSKMsg (9 GCDs) and Kaeshi: Midare Setsugekka has a ppgcd of 492.7 over its 10 GCDs. Simply returning Tenka to something like 450 potency for the first target struck and 300 to each thereafter would make Tenka and Kaeshi: Tenka competitive in single-target.
   
   With the further buff below, though, that may overshoot slightly to make focus-targeting via using Midare instead in 2-target situations come at a slight cost (i.e., outright entice use of Tenka in 2-target).
   
   
2. Having Tsubame-Gaeshi's instead hold 6 charges, each regenerated over 20 seconds, and consume charge 1 each per Sen of the Iaijutsu thus repeated (1 charge for Kaeshi: Higan, 2 for Kaeshi: Tenka, 3 for Kaeshi: Midare).
   
   In this way, Kaeshi: Higanbana would only use up 20s of TG's recharge time, at which point the immediacy of a double-DoT atop a potential extra Kaeshi: Midare within the given fight can make it a rather viable choice.
   
   OR
   
   Have Tsubame-Gaeshi refund a portion of its cooldown if used to repeat an Iaijutsu of less than 3 Sen (e.g., for a resultant 30s for Higan, 45s for Tenka).
   
   That would just be a softer variation of the above.

[ICountFrom0]

...You only have the one DoT, though, so unless you mean something very different from Iron Jaws, that would be wholly useless, except in that you'd then reapply Higan only at 1 minute, 3 minutes, 5 minutes, and 7 minutes.

First post includes the idea of having two dots.
Folks are quick to shoot it down.
I add the idea of having the dots function as per iron jaw as well, so the dots are self extending instead of self replacing, to see if that would be enough to make the idea viable.

... but somehow, I lost you with my suggestion?