Samurai Double Dot?

[SoloD007]

I think maybe a dot kenki ability would be interesting since kenki is currently reduced to shinten spam. They could go with adding a whole new button(could make the job too bloated), or just make using higanbana transform the shinten button into a different ability if weaved directly after.

Then we'd have to make sure to have kenki for higanbana and it wouldn't really add busywork since it'd always be applied alongside higanbana. Maybe even make it cost 50 kenki to make kenki management more meaningful. Too easy to cap out on kenki as is and I think that's the part of the job that needs the most attention currently.

Hmm... interesting idea... as for kenki, shinten spam for me is not a big deal, it's the perfect oGCD when my GCDs are on CD and to be honest, I don't think I have enough kenki at the moment as I hardly cap kenki since i use it as soon as it reaches to 25 or 30 haha but yeah kaeshi: higanbana is never used haha.

[nguyentri11]

Assuming SE intended for Kaeshi: Higanbana to be used in 2 target situations, then an idea I'd throw in for it would be this. Make Kaeshi: Higanbana deal more initial potency(the initial hit not the DoT). Then when Kaeshi: Higanbana goes off, whichever other target was hit with the normal Higanbana also takes that same amount of initial damage. Just enough damage that it's worth more than doing normal Higanbana twice and opting for Kaeshi: Setsugekka instead.

[SoloD007]

Assuming SE intended for Kaeshi: Higanbana to be used in 2 target situations, then an idea I'd throw in for it would be this. Make Kaeshi: Higanbana deal more initial potency(the initial hit not the DoT). Then when Kaeshi: Higanbana goes off, whichever other target was hit with the normal Higanbana also takes that same amount of initial damage. Just enough damage that it's worth more than doing normal Higanbana twice and opting for Kaeshi: Setsugekka instead.

Mmmm... Not a bad idea...

[AsiTsurugi]

Kaeshi: Higanbana exists because three iaijutsu options exist, depending sen count, and Tsubame-gaeshi is intended as a follow-up to iaijutsu. That is all. Just because something exists doesn't mean it needs to be useful. Taking the example of healers, WHM has Cure 1 as Conjurer, and it's never useful as soon as Cure 2 is added to the kit, which again is not as useful as Afflatus Solace/Tetragrammaton as soon as they become available. Some skills exist to only be "traps" for people who don't understand a class, or use it in situations where they don't need to understand the class.

As for why Kaeshi:Higanbana is not useful, it comes down to resource generation opportunity cost for overall potency output. If I need to double dot something, like add phase in UCoB or DSR, it is less of a potency loss to generate (one sticker-use Higanbana)x2, than to waste a Tsubame on a second dot. Can this be fixed to make Kaeshi: Higanbana "useful"? I don't think it can with the current samurai kit and sen generation, unless they absolutely gut Kaeshi: Setsugekka's potency, which in turn affects every other situation where you use that skill instead, or make the sen generation opportunity cost much higher, which I don't see happening without ruining samurai's kit entirely --- like disallowing the same sen to be generated back-to-back, like PvP ninja's ninjutsu skills, which would absolutely destroy sam's PvE kit by at least breaking Meikyo, if not demanding changes kit-wide just to make this one niche case warrant utility.

I also think this is a non-issue, because nothing really prevents you from using Kaeshi: Higanbana, unless you actually care about situations where you have to play at least somewhat optimally, *and* have two targets --- which makes my UCoB example above meaningless since that fight has been cleared with 100+ deaths, so using Kaeshi: Higanbana once in a single phase is a not going to ruin your chances of clearing that fight.

[SoloD007]

Kaeshi: Higanbana exists because three iaijutsu options exist, depending sen count, and Tsubame-gaeshi is intended as a follow-up to iaijutsu. That is all. Just because something exists doesn't mean it needs to be useful. Taking the example of healers, WHM has Cure 1 as Conjurer, and it's never useful as soon as Cure 2 is added to the kit, which again is not as useful as Afflatus Solace/Tetragrammaton as soon as they become available. Some skills exist to only be "traps" for people who don't understand a class, or use it in situations where they don't need to understand the class.

As for why Kaeshi:Higanbana is not useful, it comes down to resource generation opportunity cost for overall potency output. If I need to double dot something, like add phase in UCoB or DSR, it is less of a potency loss to generate (one sticker-use Higanbana)x2, than to waste a Tsubame on a second dot. Can this be fixed to make Kaeshi: Higanbana "useful"? I don't think it can with the current samurai kit and sen generation, unless they absolutely gut Kaeshi: Setsugekka's potency, which in turn affects every other situation where you use that skill instead, or make the sen generation opportunity cost much higher, which I don't see happening without ruining samurai's kit entirely --- like disallowing the same sen to be generated back-to-back, like PvP ninja's ninjutsu skills, which would absolutely destroy sam's PvE kit by at least breaking Meikyo, if not demanding changes kit-wide just to make this one niche case warrant utility.

I also think this is a non-issue, because nothing really prevents you from using Kaeshi: Higanbana, unless you actually care about situations where you have to play at least somewhat optimally, *and* have two targets --- which makes my UCoB example above meaningless since that fight has been cleared with 100+ deaths, so using Kaeshi: Higanbana once in a single phase is a not going to ruin your chances of clearing that fight.

I see your point and I somewhat agree with majority of what you said about sen generate, cost-opportunity. But I just cant get over a skill that is not utilized. Because I can see heaps of potential in Tsubame-gaeshi for Kaeshi: Higanbana. Maybe it's just me, I'm pretty fanatic about samurai haha.

[Rongway]

I can see heaps of potential in Tsubame-gaeshi for Kaeshi: Higanbana. Maybe it's just me, I'm pretty fanatic about samurai haha.

There isn't any potential in it. It is mathematically a damage loss over Kaeshi:Setsugekka in all cases.

Here is an updated table with current potencies based on this SAM FAQ answer from the Balance regarding this topic:


The green and yellow cells in the Kaeshi:Higanbana case where it looks like it pulls ahead or ties aren't real because the damage from Higanbana is a DoT. The Kaeshi:Setsugekka case is ahead from the moment of Kaeshi:Setsugekka onward. This is even before considering the autocrit on Setsugekka and Kaeshi:Setsugekka.

[SoloD007]

There isn't any potential in it. It is mathematically a damage loss over Kaeshi:Setsugekka in all cases.

Here is an updated table with current potencies based on this SAM FAQ answer from the Balance regarding this topic:


The green and yellow cells in the Kaeshi:Higanbana case where it looks like it pulls ahead or ties aren't real because the damage from Higanbana is a DoT. The Kaeshi:Setsugekka case is ahead from the moment of Kaeshi:Setsugekka onward. This is even before considering the autocrit on Setsugekka and Kaeshi:Setsugekka.

Yes, I do agree with you about the math and Kaeshi: Higanbana is always a damage loss hence I have never really touched/used Kaeshi: Higanbana ever since Square-Enix released Tsubame-gaeshi back in 5.x. However, what I meant by potential is that if Kaeshi: Higanbana can be re-worked into another skill... perhaps..? Then that potential may come into play.

[AsiTsurugi]

I see your point and I somewhat agree with majority of what you said about sen generate, cost-opportunity. But I just cant get over a skill that is not utilized. Because I can see heaps of potential in Tsubame-gaeshi for Kaeshi: Higanbana. Maybe it's just me, I'm pretty fanatic about samurai haha.

I can relate to being passionate about samurai; I am the same way about returning Kenki generation via positionals and Kaiten. But as far as Higanbana is concerned, I view it more as an opportunity to optimize in various situations, so Kaeshi: Higanbana's current state never crossed my mind because it's just a skill that exists that will likely not be good or will be too overpowered making Kaeshi: Setsugekka take its current "not used at all" spot, with no real middle ground. That being said, Flufferbut's suggestion about reapplying initial hit's potency on the other target seems intriguiging, but I haven't thought enough about it to have anything meaningful to add.

[VictorSpoils]

Just because something exists doesn't mean it needs to be useful.

This logic is kind of baffling after how big of a deal it was to lose Kaiten. Cure 1 still gets used whereas Kaeshi: Higanbana never does because it's purportedly always a damage loss, making it fundamentally worthless. There would be no downside to giving it a purpose.

[AsiTsurugi]

This logic is kind of baffling after how big of a deal it was to lose Kaiten. Cure 1 still gets used whereas Kaeshi: Higanbana never does because it's purportedly always a damage loss, making it fundamentally worthless. There would be no downside to giving it a purpose.

I can see that reading is not your strong point, so may be you want to request someone to read what I wrote in its entirety and recite it back to you?