Why not make SMN's Bahamut do Megaflare when it's summoned

[remiff]

It wasn't about min-maxing at all. It's about how upon learning Summon Phoenix you immediately became weaker because Bahamut->Pheonix was objectively weaker than Bahamut->Bahamut, and this isn't a min-maxing issue (because there is no choice involved) but a "leveling up should never make you weaker" issue.



This is a non solution because then there would be a min-maxing issue in that nobody would ever use Phoenix in a competently played party because there would never be enough incoming damage to require that healing and it would sacrifice dps.

Yes, it would be entirely situational, so people who maximize DPS will hardly ever use it, or maybe never use it unless the fight demands a ton of mobility and Bahamut becomes more of a turret-like phase.

The issue is that the current functionality of Phoenix is essentially just a reskin of Bahamut with some regeneration, and it still isn't the best design.
If Phoenix remains as it is today, things will never evolve, and it will always be Bahamut -> Titan, Ifrit, Garuda -> Phoenix > maybe Shiva, Leviathan, Ramuh.

And if the rotation follows this logic, the new elemental summons will simply be reskins of Ifrit, Titan, Garuda.

I know this would favor min-maxing for more experienced players, but isn't it a valid choice for a summoner to have the option to choose their summons based on the situation?
That's how Yoshi-p originally sold the rework and that was actually not the case, the only strategic choice in the current summoner rotation is not to use Ifrit during needing mobility phases; everything else simply doesn't require any thought.

[remiff]

I think you guys kinda have the wrong idea of where the SMN actually needs the work.

And its not 86th and higher, its at lower levels. Once you get to 86th it does start to become more strategic with the added Garuda/Ifrit/Titan Summons powers. Bahamut and Phoenix are the only ones that aren't and those are the ones that haven't changed that much other than the change of the Dreadwyrm Trance timer with Ruin enhancement portion before Bursting.

BUT that was always the part OUTSIDE of your normal SMN rotation.

The strategic portion was all the lower level stuff they removed. You had 5 different DoTs you had to stack which enhanced your Ruin potency, plus pet actions, plus Aetherflow for 3 charges of Painflare/Fester. The second iteration or Stormblood iteration that went down to only 2 or 3 DoTs, and you only got 2 charges of Aetherflow. That was what you normally spent most of your time with in the Previous iterations of SMN... ie... all the Arcanist stuff. That's why sub-86th its mostly just ruin spam now, because that's all that's left those were the only portions of it that were an actual Summoner of the original job.

So the actual key to making it more "strategic" is in those lower level abilities. They actually did a really good job with the Ifrit/Garuda/Titan summons with regards to that, but you don't see that until 86th level. They are way more strategic than Bahamut or Phoenix ever were. But what used to keep you occupied while you were waiting for those 2 was all those DoTs, Pet Ablilities, and Aetherflow powers you no longer have.

Nothing you do with the Higher level powers will change any of that. So you need to understand that right off the bat. The work needs to be done at lower levels.

As to the high level stuff in 7.0, I am actually partial to the 3 more Legos under the Phoenix Summon. Hopefully they are just as strategic as the current Ifrit/Garuda/Titan summon powers are. But that again is not where it needs the work... its at the lower levels.

I would need you to explain where the strategic aspect of Garuda and Titan is, as everyone uses Swiftcast for Garuda, and Titan is the best of the three while also providing 100% mobility.
Only Ifrit in the mix is a real strategic choice because of its long casts and a gap closer that can lead to a KO if used at the wrong moment or for cast canceling during mobility phases.

But the rest of the rotation is similar to Bahamut and Phoenix, which is why introducing three new légos would simply bring no freshness but only reskin.
And yes, it's clear that they should reduce the level of the 86 trait, but it's not the only issue with the current summoner.

The gameplay seems entirely incomplete, and resource management has become non-existent.

[Silverquick]

I would need you to explain where the strategic aspect of Garuda and Titan is, as everyone uses Swiftcast for Garuda, and Titan is the best of the three while also providing 100% mobility.
Only Ifrit in the mix is a real strategic choice because of its long casts and a gap closer that can lead to a KO if used at the wrong moment or for cast canceling during mobility phases.

But the rest of the rotation is similar to Bahamut and Phoenix, which is why introducing three new légos would simply bring no freshness but only reskin.
And yes, it's clear that they should reduce the level of the 86 trait, but it's not the only issue with the current summoner.

The gameplay seems entirely incomplete, and resource management has become non-existent.

Well you can use swiftcast for Garuda/Slipstream, but then you're screwed if you have to Res someone. Which even to this day I have to do in the higher level content.
So that may not be the smartest use of your swiftcast and it can cost you if you do. Not that you can't hard Res someone... but that's way longer cast time than Slipstream.

That said, the strategic use of Slipstream really isn't about the casting time its more about having to strategically use it during a segment where the boss mob won't be moving. The Garuda casts are very short and allow mobility, but they are very low damage comparatively unless you lay down your Slipstream first (DoT) as they're based on increasing the DPS when used on top of that. You do Slipstream at the wrong time, your DPS takes a hit.

This is why I support the 3 new Legos... assuming they have this kind of built in tactical usage.

[Rongway]

I know this would favor min-maxing for more experienced players, but isn't it a valid choice for a summoner to have the option to choose their summons based on the situation?

There is choice and then there is "choice". Being able to "chose" between Bahamut and Phoenix would be "choice" because some people would choose the correct answer and some people would choose Phoenix.

All fights in the game are designed such that that healers can handle all the healing. Pulling out Phoenix to help would lose more dps than just letting the healers do the job themselves, so it wouldn't actually be helping at all.

[remiff]

There is choice and then there is "choice". Being able to "chose" between Bahamut and Phoenix would be "choice" because some people would choose the correct answer and some people would choose Phoenix.

All fights in the game are designed such that that healers can handle all the healing. Pulling out Phoenix to help would lose more dps than just letting the healers do the job themselves, so it wouldn't actually be helping at all.

They can always rework phoenix effect,
although I doubt they would since they seem to like giving team heal/hot effects on DPS/TANK jobs.

Personally I am against the effects of heal/regen,
but for pheonix i don't see what devs could do other than give an instant ressurection,
which they probably won't do since they're talking about removing the summoner's rez.

[Connor]

There is choice and then there is "choice". Being able to "chose" between Bahamut and Phoenix would be "choice" because some people would choose the correct answer and some people would choose Phoenix.

All fights in the game are designed such that that healers can handle all the healing. Pulling out Phoenix to help would lose more dps than just letting the healers do the job themselves, so it wouldn't actually be helping at all.

By this logic there’s absolutely no point in any kind of dps or rotational / ability variation on Summoner whatsoever. So…it’s perfect the way it is?

I mean, it’s literally straight up impossible for them to make a decision between two abilities without one becoming numerically superior . So using the logic of ‘these decisions must never happen because one will always be better than the other’, just means locking all jobs into the current design they have (no choices, conveyor belt rotations, no utility) for eternity. Why give Summoner a complex rotation with DoTs and oGCDs when people will chose the wrong ones? It can just have a small indistinct set of abilities that are all mostly the exact same. Now nobody will ever make the wrong decision again

[Payadopa]

It wasn't about min-maxing at all. It's about how upon learning Summon Phoenix you immediately became weaker because Bahamut->Pheonix was objectively weaker than Bahamut->Bahamut, and this isn't a min-maxing issue (because there is no choice involved) but a "leveling up should never make you weaker" issue.

That is exactly what min-maxing is. And you didn't get weaker. You got a heal with it. And as I said before, min-maxers throw a tamper tantrum because less DPS bad. That is the issue and one of the reasons why jobs are as bland as they are.

[Payadopa]

By this logic there’s absolutely no point in any kind of dps or rotational / ability variation on Summoner whatsoever. So…it’s perfect the way it is?

I mean, it’s literally straight up impossible for them to make a decision between two abilities without one becoming numerically superior . So using the logic of ‘these decisions must never happen because one will always be better than the other’, just means locking all jobs into the current design they have (no choices, conveyor belt rotations, no utility) for eternity. Why give Summoner a complex rotation with DoTs and oGCDs when people will chose the wrong ones? It can just have a small indistinct set of abilities that are all mostly the exact same. Now nobody will ever make the wrong decision again

And then people complain because a job is brain-dead or on autopilot. Yeah, don't listen to min-maxer in the first place.

[Mikey_R]

That is exactly what min-maxing is. And you didn't get weaker. You got a heal with it. And as I said before, min-maxers throw a tamper tantrum because less DPS bad. That is the issue and one of the reasons why jobs are as bland as they are.

No, min maxing means you have a choice. Getting Phoenix doesn't give you a choice, therefore, no min maxing has been done. This is the whole reason Phoenix was buffed fairly quickly, to make it equal to Bahamut, so that you don't do less just by levelling.

[Payadopa]

No, min maxing means you have a choice. Getting Phoenix doesn't give you a choice, therefore, no min maxing has been done. This is the whole reason Phoenix was buffed fairly quickly, to make it equal to Bahamut, so that you don't do less just by levelling.

By complaining about it you influence the design so your numbers get bigger again. It's min-maxing of a different order. And isn't the point of that mindset that there are no options but only one correct way?

What these complaints fail to recognise is that these numbers don't happen in a vacuum. I've already seen people advocating for the removal of raise on certain jobs. The whole discussion boils down to shortsightedness and only seeing one's own DPS not the game as a whole two expansions in a row. Y to the P said so himself when he pointed out that he was only obliging players (like with the 2 minute meta). That's why you should leave the game design to, y'know, game designers.