Why not make SMN's Bahamut do Megaflare when it's summoned

[fulminating]

Gear being equal, a level 79 summoner would be doing more* damage than a level 80 in crown of the immaculate at ew launch. This is an unnegotiatable nerf at no fault to the player, and outside of aethercharge dodginess the only instance of getting weaker as a result of obtaining more levels. It is entirely disconnected to minmaxing, more related to being entirely contrary to their design philosophy.

Minmaxing would be pet jiggling to delay aetherpact/devotion, vengeance under inner release or prepull doton. Except all of those were removed come endwalker.

*fairly certain the 1 level stat increase didn’t outweigh it.

[Mikey_R]

By complaining about it you influence the design so your numbers get bigger again. It's min-maxing of a different order. And isn't the point of that mindset that there are no options but only one correct way?

I don't believe someone can miss the mark this much. Levelling up reducing your jobs potential shouldn't be something that happens. This has nothing to do with having a res, this has nothing to do with min maxing, this is just bad job design.

Imagine if, upon hitting 76, Dragoons get access to Raiden Thrust, but it does 200 potency, but it has a heal (True thrust is 230 potency for reference), would that be fine?

If Monk's Phantom Rush done 800 potency (Tornado Kick is 850) but it added a heal for the whole party.

Imagine if, you get to level 80 and get access to Phoenix, but compared to Bahamut, you lose 650 potency, but you get a party wide regen, oh wait, that is exactly what Summoner had.

Again, this isn't min maxing, this is a flaw in the design of the job.

[Raikai]

The only solution to make Phoenix and Bahamut entirely different is to reduce the DPS that Phoenix provides, to separate Phoenix and Bahamut and give the summoner the choice to have more DPS or less DPS/support, is in my opinion,
the only plausible solution to prevent Phoenix from being a pale copy of the Bahamut with healing.

I don't see an issue in equalizing (or nearly doing so) Bahamut and Phoenix's dps. The issue is more like both demis are almost just a reskin of each other - you press the same gcds x6 and fill in the 2 ogcds somewhere, difference is that Phoenix has one of those being a heal. If the 3 gemstones can make their buttons promote somewhat of different playstyles, why not the Demis?

I feel in a game like XIV, if Phoenix was just an opt choice for support healing for less dps, we'd rarely see it in group content as well as rarely seeing Bahamut during solo activities where sustained HP is important (like Deep Dungeons solo).

[Turtledeluxe]

And people wonder why the game is so stale job-wise. Just another prime example. I mean Phoenix was lower in damage because it could also heal. Makes a lot of sense to me. But then min-maxers threw a hissy fit and the potency got changed. Small change but exemplary.

FFXIV in a nutshell.

Squabbling over whether this one specific instance was the result of min maxing is dodging the overall issue imo which is that a certain kind of player (whether they are minmaxing in one instance or not) gives feedback that streamlines and steamrolls jobs for high end content.

Also minmaxing does not have all this arbitrary nonsense like "it must have a choice". At this point people just use the term to denote dry and unimaginative job Design that no one outside a tiny % of players enjoys.

[remiff]

I don't see an issue in equalizing (or nearly doing so) Bahamut and Phoenix's dps. The issue is more like both demis are almost just a reskin of each other - you press the same gcds x6 and fill in the 2 ogcds somewhere, difference is that Phoenix has one of those being a heal. If the 3 gemstones can make their buttons promote somewhat of different playstyles, why not the Demis?

I feel in a game like XIV, if Phoenix was just an opt choice for support healing for less dps, we'd rarely see it in group content as well as rarely seeing Bahamut during solo activities where sustained HP is important (like Deep Dungeons solo).

Phoenix was cool in Shadowbringers and was relatively different from Bahamut.
Now, Bahamut and Phoenix are essentially the same, except one provides situational regen.

It's not a problem that Phoenix is as strong as Bahamut, but it's a shame that these two summons no longer have their unique mechanics.

Before, Bahamut had a semi-turret phase where you had to use ruin IV for optimization, and Phoenix had a mobile phase with a combo.
However, they managed to erase the distinction that used to exist between the two, personally i don't believe they will revert this change.

I think the Summoner in PvP has more flavor in certain aspects, but unfortunately, it wouldn't fit well in PvE, I'm aware of that.
However, I still believe that having the choice is good if the alternative offers a real advantage, even if it doesn't necessarily result in more DPS,
yes people who seek parsing and optimization might not use it, but they represent a minor percentage of the community.

But of course, they will never go for such a design, and obviously, it wouldn't please everyone.
However, to be honest, I'm not sure how they could make the Summoner better than it is currently while keeping its current mechanics.

Adding three more lego after Phoenix won't fundamentally change its rotation since they would have to align with how Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan work but with a different appearance,
that's why I think the rework needs another rework and several changes in lower level.

[Turtledeluxe]

Phoenix was cool in Shadowbringers and was relatively different from Bahamut.
Now, Bahamut and Phoenix are essentially the same, except one provides situational regen.

It's not a problem that Phoenix is as strong as Bahamut, but it's a shame that these two summons no longer have their unique mechanics.

Before, Bahamut had a semi-turret phase where you had to use ruin IV for optimization, and Phoenix had a mobile phase with a combo.
However, they managed to erase the distinction that used to exist between the two, personally i don't believe they will revert this change.

I think the Summoner in PvP has more flavor in certain aspects, but unfortunately, it wouldn't fit well in PvE, I'm aware of that.
However, I still believe that having the choice is good if the alternative offers a real advantage, even if it doesn't necessarily result in more DPS,
yes people who seek parsing and optimization might not use it, but they represent a minor percentage of the community.

But of course, they will never go for such a design, and obviously, it wouldn't please everyone.
However, to be honest, I'm not sure how they could make the Summoner better than it is currently while keeping its current mechanics.

Adding three more lego after Phoenix won't fundamentally change its rotation since they would have to align with how Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan work but with a different appearance,
that's why I think the rework needs another rework and several changes in lower level.

It's not a problem in and of itself. It's a problem that devs interpret feedback as "just adjust potency". There seems be some implying going on ITT that devs have come up with this idea just out of nowhere and that minmaxers/optimizers have nothing to do with it. I don't really buy that. Maybe "we just want the leveling progression to make sense" is the means but we ultimately know the goal and I very highly doubt it has to do with the average Joe doing MSQ. The average Joe playing a class just wants the solution that makes SMN fun to play-- the minmaxer raider wants Bahamut and Phoenix to be the same. Can we not just be honest here...and to be clear I agree with your quote I'm just asking the general question.

[Payadopa]

words

And then a new expansion drops and you're weaker again. Big whoop. I really don't care. You fail to see the point I was making. Min-maxers should have no say over design. Period. And, again, you're not weaker, you gained a heal as compensation. If people don't see healing as valuable (I can certainly see where they're coming from) that's ultimately their decision. Even if we exclude SMN, we're still left with enough other cases.

[fulminating]

If in dawntrail every other full blood lily gauge instead only let you cast afflatus fishery with 1000 potency but providing the effect of chum I’m certain whm mains would not be thrilled. (Afflatus misery being 1240 potency)

[Mikey_R]

And then a new expansion drops and you're weaker again. Big whoop. I really don't care. You fail to see the point I was making. Min-maxers should have no say over design. Period. And, again, you're not weaker, you gained a heal as compensation. If people don't see healing as valuable (I can certainly see where they're coming from) that's ultimately their decision. Even if we exclude SMN, we're still left with enough other cases.

Again, trying to put this down to min maxing has blinded you to the core issue. So, for the last time, here are the details:

I will look at potency over a time, this is stat and level independent.

On the release of EW, Bahamut's potency profile looked like this for single target:

6x Astral Impulse at 430 potency = 2580 total potency
1x Death Flare at 500 potency = 500 potency
1x Akh Morn at 1300 potency = 1300 potency
Total potency = 4380

For Phoenix:
6x Fountain of Fire at 430 potency = 2580 potency
1x Revelation at 1300 potency = 1300 potency
Total potency = 3880

So, just for levelling to 80, you lost 500 potency worth of damage every 2 minutes just because you levelled up. This is why I used examples of other jobs getting upgrades that do less potency, but have a heal and ask, does that make sense? Because those are the exact same situations that Summoner ended up in. You can either say, yes, that isn't fair or you can say, no, stupid min maxers are complaining for no reason.

If you still fail to see how this wasn't a min max issue then I am sorry for your lack of understanding and I am glad you are not on the job design/balance team.

[LilimoLimomo]

If Bahamut deals more damage than Phoenix, as it was the case in 6.0, a level 70 summoner would be stronger than a level 80 summoner,
because summoning Phoenix would be a reduction in burst damage.

OP already addressed this in their original post:

It might deal more damage yes but you can just take the damage out of other skills to keep the balance.