A Respectful Request For Improved Cloth & Hair Physics

[SeverianLyonesse]

Physics is really bothering to me and it was very apparent with the Dancer tome weapon - a very unique design that is sadly spoiled by how the tassels are stiff as a board. I'm sure that the winner is happy for their weapon to be selected, but I wonder how they feel about this, that seems like an important part of the design.



Or one of my favorite caster masks, Kokuko men, that has this dangling part that is stiff in the air when the mask is pulled up:


*Images are googled, not mine

And what's even weirder is that some parts like this one actually wiggle with the wind, but doesn't obey gravity laws lol.

I actually agree that adding a few extra bones to certain pieces of gear is much more important than hair. A lot of headgears have dangly bits that very noticeably do not move, and we could probably argue the same for certain body/hands/feet gear. I would also hope for the meshes on certain flowier pants pieces to fall more naturally, but that may be asking for too much. I definitely think that they could/should be able to manage a physics overhaul for dangly bits though.

And, in a similar vein, we *know* from certain weaponsets (Fiend, Diamond Zeta, etc.) that the devs have a lot of flexibility in weapon rigging and animations. So I struggle to think how giving certain features physics would not be possible on both weapons and gear.

[GTK0HLK]

Just as with the Clan Traits Thread, there are some more Pressing things to focus on.

If they eventually do, it'd be nice of their efforts.

Weapons are much more glaring like SAM or NIN weapons that have stiff tassels.
(as well as the latest example of Tome 655, regardless of what you think of their procurement process. I think it's botched.)

If they do consider this as part of a "Second" Graphical Update Vs the "First Graphical Update" we are getting in 7.0
it'd be a pleasant surprise.
But in which order of importance.

Probably Like this.
Weapon/Armor Physics > Hair/Fur/Scale/Tail Physics > Clan Homogenization(for those who actually want it in that other thread. Highly Unlikely) > Half Races (No Hope, but for Deus Ex Machina)

[Sorimachi87]

I would love to see those improvements in that area in the future. I am aware they will take a lot of time so hopefully they'll make it into the game soon!

[Kacho_Nacho]

The "GLAM" aspect of FF14 is truly enormous, if not even more substantial than PvP and PvE combined. It's been long overdue for FF14 to receive a graphical update, as the 2014 standards are far behind us, and today's computers and consoles are significantly more powerful than they were back then. Consoles, in particular, repeatedly demonstrate their capability to deliver stunning graphics.

Physics-influenced elements like hair and clothing have become standard in games, and they have been around since 2011, if not earlier, on a large scale. Whether it's vegetation or clothing, these features have been available for quite some time.

I always advocate for great graphical updates, especially since my computer is getting bored with FF14, and most of its components, except for the RTX3080, are now five years old. Even today, I can play current games at high FPS, even with ray tracing enabled (using Cyberpunk 2077 as an example).

Yoshi himself stated that FF14 is far from ending, and players growing up in today's era, spoiled with abundant computing and console power, will look back at past games with a tired eye. Graphics aside, this aspect of a game should truly not be neglected.
In short: Physics-influenced elements like hair and clothing? Yes, please, I absolutely want them. They make the whole game environment more vibrant and authentic.

Good points! I absolutely agree if FFXIV wants to keep bringing in new players its graphics have to be comparable to the current games on the market. With the advent of so many new games using the Unreal 5 engine, FFXIV is in serious danger of looking like it was made in the Nintendo Age of gaming.

Making hair and cloth move naturally isn't necessarily easy but can probably be done by making the model work with a popular physics engine. But let's assume they already did this because of the movement we already see. The issue is then collision, where clothes and hair collide with other clothes or the rest of the character model itself. To avoid this, some of the time spent making gear and hair goes into making sure it doesn't collide much on all the difference races, so if they could somehow solve the collision issue then it could save them time or thought about this issue when making the models.

If you think about hair though, in order to twist and turn to the extent needed for this, it could require a lot of polygons, rather than being very simple and blocky like it currently looks. Which returns us to the question of what if hundreds of players are next to each other with all these polygons that they didn't anticipate and players complain about performance and crashes?

Yes, it will be challenging and there is a real danger of a big hit to performance. But, I feel there is some wiggle room between what we have now and totally realistic hair, cloth, tassels, etc... Honestly, would it be that hard to have soft things bend to cut down on all the clipping?

Today's computers and consoles are far more robust. We don't need to have stiff as a board tassels, ignoring gravity to accommodate 24+ people grouped in an area. We don't need hair and manes held in place by super glue, either. If the Creative Business Unit III doesn't address things like these, they are going to really stick out in the finished product. Players will complain they put little effort into the update because people naturally see the flaws in a piece of work rather than the expert care the developers put into the other 95% of the work.

[SeverianLyonesse]

Good points! I absolutely agree if FFXIV wants to keep bringing in new players its graphics have to be comparable to the current games on the market. With the advent of so many new games using the Unreal 5 engine, FFXIV is in serious danger of looking like it was made in the Nintendo Age of gaming.

I think calling it Nintendo Age is a bit hyperbolic, but I do generally share the sentiment.

As it stands, FFXIV still looks quite good, especially when compared to other MMOs. As long as it remains highly stylized (which it is), still churns out regular content (which it does), and graphically looks *at least as good* as its main competitors (better than WoW, GW2, ESO), then it will have a niche for some time longer. I would not be concerned about its success unless/until one of two things happens:

1. A main competitor with substantially better graphics/mechanics/lore gains traction. This could be as simple as WoW or GW2 releasing a totally new and polished version of their existing systems, or it could involve a more established game like New World slowly building up and refining itself into a more reliable experience. Both of these possibilities are several years off unless, I don't know, some media juggernaut like Disney drops a heavily researched and developed fantasy MMO based on even larger properties than Final Fantasy; again, highly unlikely. I don't think any MMO releases in a successful state these days and practically has to plan for the long game.

2. Final Fantasy nostalgia and goodwill wears out. This was going to be the reality for FFXIV when XIII and XV were riddled with development/release issues and underperformed. FFXIV leaned hard into referentialism to keep the company afloat, and is now the ultimate Final Fantasy theme park; but in doing so, it threw its lot in with the goodwill of the entire franchise--i.e. more players engage in XIV for the nostalgia of the franchise than for XIV's own unique identity. But I would make a very safe bet that when FFXIV stops being a central hub for "old school" FF fandom, particularly FFI-VII-ish (but with some heavy hitters in VIII-X), that will be its death knell. Because that specific brand of nostalgia appeals to a very large population in a very specific manner that no other game on the market does. And yeah they will likely tap out FF IX and X references in Dawntrail and incorporate some XIII and XV elements in 8.0, but any references after FF X are not going to carry the same traction with consumers as the "core" of the franchise.

But I do not think graphics are going to factor much into either avenue. FFXIV's selling point is franchise, and to a lesser but still significant extent, consistency. I do not see consistency dropping anytime soon while SE lacks any other major sources of revenue and their attempts at releasing new tentpoles falter. So I foresee XIV undergoing a slow death as the franchise wanes and settles completely into an "old school Runescape" market.

[Fourbestintoner]

Physics is really bothering to me and it was very apparent with the Dancer tome weapon - a very unique design that is sadly spoiled by how the tassels are stiff as a board. I'm sure that the winner is happy for their weapon to be selected, but I wonder how they feel about this, that seems like an important part of the design.

The blades should have been as large and thick as ninja weapons, I was extremely disappointed.

[Kacho_Nacho]

I think calling it Nintendo Age is a bit hyperbolic, but I do generally share the sentiment.

Hahahaha! I knew someone would call me out on that. True be told, I blanked for a moment, and the only thing which came to mind was "Nintendo Age."

I like the rest of your post. I'd hate to see FFXIV die a slow death and turn into the equivalent of Old School Runescape.

[SeverianLyonesse]

Hahahaha! I knew someone would call me out on that. True be told, I blanked for a moment, and the only thing which came to mind was "Nintendo Age."

I like the rest of your post. I'd hate to see FFXIV die a slow death and turn into the equivalent of Old School Runescape.

I mean that's kind of the state FFXI is already in. I don't think it is a bad fate for older MMOs. There's definitely a lot of bittersweetness in the notion, but all good things reach that point eventually. And as long as there are people keeping the community alive, the game will survive.

I do think that FFXIV falling by the wayside is inevitable. I see it in WoW and GW2 as well--these games are of an older keyboard, hotbar/GCD era that is quickly going out of fashion. I have friends who won't even play GW2 and struggle with FFXIV because they are not gamepad compatible. And even excluding interface, most "hot" games nowadays are just more action-oriented in ways the WoW-era MMOs are not. In the same way that I am anticipating GW3 to be primarily an action game with MMO-features, I would expect a new FF MMO to lean heavily into FFXVI-style gameplay, where players focus more on movement-based skills, and where they may have a smaller move pool but a greater degree of customizability they can frontload pre-combat. That just seems to be the next wave of games (although I would hope that a FF MMO that strayed that far from menu-based combat would still have some side features for old schoolers).

I like your sig, very wholesome.

[CidHeiral]

Honestly, would it be that hard to have soft things bend to cut down on all the clipping?

It's not a matter of whether implementing it is difficult or not, they could make the graphics as high fidelity as they can dream of. The problem is performance. MMOs cater to a very wide range of players and most people playing the game are either on an old and busted PC or a console. Even with the new system requirements the game can still be played on a toaster, but you already see people lamenting that they have to update their rig to run it. PS4 players won't be able to utilize the majority of the improvements at all. Adding a physics engine that realistically calculates hair and armor physics with full collision would detonate their machine the second they step into a populated area.

Personally I see no issue with the level of physics we have now and I think the clipping complaints are very overblown. It's an MMO, things clip sometimes, it's not that big of a deal.

[Tysilio]

I also remember Yoshi-P clearly stating that improved physics won't be part of 7.0. I think it was when they first announced the graphics upgrade.

It's clearly doable (everything is), but it'll probably make some players' rigs incompatible, and probably make the PS4 version kick the bucket (but I'd be surprised that SE keeps the PS4 version after Dawntrail).

There's basically two ways of doing this :
- Softbody physics with colliders: it's less realistic, but pretty fast. The game probably already uses this to some extent. Having more realistic hair and cloth physics imply reworking all colliders and bones (and vertex weights) on each and every armour and haircut (and mulitply that for each available body type in the game).
- Per-vertex physics simulation: very realistic, but super slow. It can probably be GPU-accelerated, but it'll be very expensive anyway. I don't think implementing this in an MMO is a very good idea (yet).

I don't know of any other real-time physics systems that could be used for hair apart from these.