The "tenacity" Problem (other melds aswell)

[dspguy]

So, tenacity's defense/HP increases are not going to be what saves a player from a tankbuster. If a player is relying on that, they are doing it wrong. For the content where melds matter... more defense/HP is not going to help. There are DPS checks. Melds have to be DPS-focused just based on how the game is designed. Therefore, they can either leave tenacity in the game and it will simply be rarely purchased and melded to gear. Or they can abandon it entirely and just put Direct Hit on tank gear.

[Rithy255]

Piety already does MP regen and nobody goes for it because it doesn't impact DPS in a meaningful way, and is better to meld Direct Hit melds. Though by "Leech" you mean something similar to DPS role action Bloodbath? As tank I would love to have that. Both this "Leech" AND Bloodbath.

I mean MP regen would be more useful is it was VS other utility skills (granted a job like white mage or something was actually struggling with MP), which I think the post was trying to talk about.

So, tenacity's defense/HP increases are not going to be what saves a player from a tankbuster. If a player is relying on that, they are doing it wrong. For the content where melds matter... more defense/HP is not going to help. There are DPS checks. Melds have to be DPS-focused just based on how the game is designed. Therefore, they can either leave tenacity in the game and it will simply be rarely purchased and melded to gear. Or they can abandon it entirely and just put Direct Hit on tank gear.

Again I can argue DPS doesn't even matter if you can already clear the fight just like extra defensive value doesn't matter if it doesn't let you survive more, I mentioned this in the original post that I don't think improving it will make it a better stat then crit/DH.

I think the real issue is that Defensive value means so little on tanks now, I believe even SHB had some value in bringing a Dark Knight or Warrior for "extra defensive value" for a lot of groups despite not being meta... So it's not like Defensive value has always meant very little, it's just something that EW has too much of in the first place, beyond that it would never even save healer GCD's with how current job/fight design works.

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think tanks only value should be if they should marginally do slightly more damage then another tank because that must means theirs a deep issue with current job design (which spoiler alert for tanks and healers there is).

[Absurdity]

Again I can argue DPS doesn't even matter if you can already clear the fight just like extra defensive value doesn't matter if it doesn't let you survive more, I mentioned this in the original post that I don't think improving it will make it a better stat then crit/DH.

Ironically I actually think that DPS does exactly what stats like Tenacity wish they could do, allow for more mistakes. Extra defense is not going to save you from oneshot mechanics, but extra dps allows you to mitigate a death, it allows you to play safe even at the cost of uptime, it allows you to mess up and take a damage down, and still beat the enrage.
Granted all the bodycheck mechanics added to recent Endwalker fights make this a lot more difficult but that's an entirely separate issue as it affects recovery skills like Verraise as well.

[Rithy255]

Ironically I actually think that DPS does exactly what stats like Tenacity wish they could do, allow for more mistakes. Extra defense is not going to save you from oneshot mechanics, but extra dps allows you to mitigate a death, it allows you to play safe even at the cost of uptime, it allows you to mess up and take a damage down, and still beat the enrage.
Granted all the bodycheck mechanics added to recent Endwalker fights make this a lot more difficult but that's an entirely separate issue as it affects recovery skills like Verraise as well.

I think my suggestion would work better in a world where that extra defensive value would A: allow you to survive more mistakes and B: Add extra value by saving healer GCD's (in a world where healer couldn't just OGCD heal everything through a fight).

I've pointed out how Defensive value doesn't matter currently on my last post, but it also wasn't always that way. While I don't disagree with what you said in that DPS has currently way more value it's more because defensive value has so little that damage done just wins by default. (Even if it's like by the smallest of margin)

Hence why I think theirs fundamental issues with how Endwalker is designed for Tank (and healer), it's been a Thing a while with tank stances (but a lot of that was because tank stances already took out a massive chunk of DPS not just a small amount), which I think requires rethinking of how tanks/healers should be valued, they obviously value Utility vs DPS look at what was recently said about red mage... So I think they actually need to fix utility/defensive ect. To at least have some value.

[RoboYumi]

Id personally like to see Tenacity's damage scaling improve significantly, and while it already gives a lot of effects, just at very small ratios, its not very noticeable.

- Higher damage multiplier, though still less than DET.
- increased HP and healing received
- Damage reduction, even the same as it is now

Its not that bad, its just "not optimal" and so it feels bad in general; I dont think it needs major changes, as a result. Even just nerfing Crit melds would be sufficient to make Det/Ten builds potentially happen. Substats need a major change in 7.0 anyway, its been rather stagnant for a while

[Rithy255]

Id personally like to see Tenacity's damage scaling improve significantly, and while it already gives a lot of effects, just at very small ratios, its not very noticeable.

- Higher damage multiplier, though still less than DET.
- increased HP and healing received
- Damage reduction, even the same as it is now

Its not that bad, its just "not optimal" and so it feels bad in general; I dont think it needs major changes, as a result. Even just nerfing Crit melds would be sufficient to make Det/Ten builds potentially happen. Substats need a major change in 7.0 anyway, its been rather stagnant for a while

I think I like the Idea of Tenacity just giving DH (The same amount as base level DH) so theirs no a reason to really meld DH and theirs way more reason to meld tenacity.
But I would much prefer something like a rework of melding anyway.

[Arohk]

I've pointed out how Defensive value doesn't matter currently on my last post, but it also wasn't always that way. While I don't disagree with what you said in that DPS has currently way more value it's more because defensive value has so little that damage done just wins by default. (Even if it's like by the smallest of margin)

The only game where "Defense Value" mattered was Classic World of Warcraft, where you had to meet a certain threshold of +defense to mitigate crushing blows which could randomly onehit you as a tank. But FF is focused on boss mechanics and not rng crap that could kill you for doing nothing wrong.
The upside of having more DPS just outvalues everything defense could ever give you.
Kill a boss fast enough and you can skip entire mechanics, and as mentioned before it allows for mistakes like death or damage down, there is never any situation where you could wipe because the tank takes too much damage, but you will wipe because the tank does not enough damage.

[Rithy255]

The only game where "Defense Value" mattered was Classic World of Warcraft, where you had to meet a certain threshold of +defense to mitigate crushing blows which could randomly onehit you as a tank. But FF is focused on boss mechanics and not rng crap that could kill you for doing nothing wrong.
The upside of having more DPS just outvalues everything defense could ever give you.
Kill a boss fast enough and you can skip entire mechanics, and as mentioned before it allows for mistakes like death or damage down, there is never any situation where you could wipe because the tank takes too much damage, but you will wipe because the tank does not enough damage.

I mean a tanks defensive value over having more DPS, would be to save healer GCD's which relates to how DPS works in this game, Issue is you never GCD heal on healer because healing is very low and healers already have more then enough resources to keep full DPS uptime, even having a tank that can be more forgiving to heal.

In reality damage only matters to the extent it helps you clear a fight, most fights don't really need the tank to maximise their damage either (I don't know what you're able to skip either on recent fights), DPS gains are the best stats because defensive/healing value matters so little, not because doing slightly more damage when you would have cleared overwise. Utility, ease of use, defensives that saved gcds is something that used to matter more when learning a fight So theirs a lot more then just damage that used to be important.

I think if tanks want to be focused as "blue DPS" design wise then they need more interesting rotations instead of being boring DPS, where you only meld RNG Crit/DH stats theirs nothing really interesting about the current design and it does have a lot of issues, If The game focuses on only boss mechanics and dance fights what's even the point of tanks and healers in the first place. This middle ground approach to the design doesn't make any sense to me.

[Arohk]

snip.

you need 190 tenacity for 1% mitigation on Level 90.
If you meld your entire gear with tenacity that's +792 Tenacity for 22*36 Materias, or +4.12% mitigation.

You lose:
~18% direct hit
~18% crit chance
for measly 4% more mitigation.

And what's worse, the game doesn't tell you this very valuable information.

[Rithy255]

you need 190 tenacity for 1% mitigation on Level 90.
If you meld your entire gear with tenacity that's +792 Tenacity for 22+36 Materias, or +4.12% mitigation.

You lose:
~18% direct hit
~18% crit chance
for measly 4% more mitigation.

And what's worse, the game doesn't tell you this very valuable information.

Yeah I didn't argue current tenacity was good either, hence the suggestion, but I think tenacity and meld stats need a general rework anyway, I somewhat disagree with my OG post.