Healer kit adjustment idea, 40% dps to 60% heals/utility

[primarisgoazrr]

Hey friends! So we’ve all heard/experienced the main issues with healers at the moment, the main issues I want to try to give a solution to are: no dps rotation/glare spam, and too many healing actions.

As the title suggests how I want to tackle it is a 40/60 split. Let’s take WHM for example; atm WHM has 24 actions(not including role actions), 5 dps and 19 healing/utility, that’s about a 20/80 split. If we do a 40/60 split, then that would bring WHM to 10 dps and 14 healing/utility.

I think this would let each healer to have their own unique dps rotation that isn’t super difficult but works well with the rest of kit, and maybe all of the healing/utility actions can be used more uniquely and be more meaningful because there wouldn’t be as many. Also in a game where dps is king I think this style would fit in alot better

Of courses I realize this wouldn’t fix all of our problems but I think it would be a good start, it’d make the gameplay more interesting. I’d like to hear what you guys think

[Zolvolt]

If damage design does not change in savage/ult etc then I agree. Turning some of our healing/utility actions into dps actions would be for the best.
I'd prefer if we could just have more situations to use our healing abilities though.

[Sani2341]

While I do agree on the core idea of wanting more dmg buttons, you are skipping over the difficult part. Just more actions is not necessarily a good solution. They also should encourage a decent Variety to the spells cast on your average GCD.

Just because we could have 5 extra buttons, if there's no reason, or ability, to use them all through out the fight the decrease in boredom might easily be less than giving just one or two actions that are used regularly.

I.e. compare a new phlegma type spell for SCH with giving it miasma Back.

The former would be saved for either mobility or raidbuffs depending on the exact cd and if it has charges or Not.

Where as miasma would need to be kept up regularly taking up, iirc, every 6th gcd with it's 18s duration.


Or conversely improving the interactivity between healing and dmg actions could increase the variety in Gameplay without needing more dmg spells at all.
I.e. If Toxicon was dmg neutral SGE would use more Toxikons on adds and for movement and during raidbuffs. Which in turn would mean more uses of E. Diagnosis to have the resources to use it. Thus at least adding 6 non-nuke GCDs for each raidbuff window (well just 3 for the first if sge keeps loading into instances with full addersting), which could easily be the same as giving sge 3 more dmg spells on 60s CDs.

Ofc both these napkin math ideas have their own issues. Not everyone enjoys juggling DoTs for one. And iirc SGE's mp Economy atm would turn net negativ with that many gcd shields.

[Renathras]

Hey friends! So we’ve all heard/experienced the main issues with healers at the moment, the main issues I want to try to give a solution to are: no dps rotation/glare spam, and too many healing actions.

As the title suggests how I want to tackle it is a 40/60 split. Let’s take WHM for example; atm WHM has 24 actions(not including role actions), 5 dps and 19 healing/utility, that’s about a 20/80 split. If we do a 40/60 split, then that would bring WHM to 10 dps and 14 healing/utility.

I think this would let each healer to have their own unique dps rotation that isn’t super difficult but works well with the rest of kit, and maybe all of the healing/utility actions can be used more uniquely and be more meaningful because there wouldn’t be as many. Also in a game where dps is king I think this style would fit in alot better

Of courses I realize this wouldn’t fix all of our problems but I think it would be a good start, it’d make the gameplay more interesting. I’d like to hear what you guys think

No, but thank you.

I don't want to be a DPSer. If I want to be a DPSer, I hop on SMN and play DPS.

I don't mind SOME healers working this way, and even suggest that all the time (SGE being the most logical choice for the most DPS focused one). But I'd hate it if this was forced on all the healer Jobs. I might even quit the role. If I have to be a DPSer, I may as well just swap to SMN and play an actual DPS Job instead.

No, not for all the healers. Hard no.

But if you're suggesting this for just one or two of the healer Jobs? I might be open to that. Start with SGE and we'll go from there. (Personally, I think AST going more the route of more buffs would be a better fit for it, anyway).

[AmiableApkallu]

I don't want to be a DPSer. If I want to be a DPSer, I hop on SMN and play DPS.

Perhaps a bit of a tangent here, but I will un-ironically say that I find SMN's current DPS kit to be less interesting and engaging than any of healers' current DPS kits. And mind, I've known nothing but Endwalker SMN, so it's not as if I'm pining for some previous iteration of the job.

Endwalker SMN is the only (combat) job where I constantly feel like I'm forgetting something. But, nope, cooldowns are on cooldown, there is no gauge to overcap, and there is no DoT to maintain.

The serious point to take away from this is that "DPS" isn't merely a matter of button count.

[Renathras]

Perhaps a bit of a tangent here, but I will un-ironically say that I find SMN's current DPS kit to be less interesting and engaging than any of healers' current DPS kits. And mind, I've known nothing but Endwalker SMN, so it's not as if I'm pining for some previous iteration of the job.

Endwalker SMN is the only (combat) job where I constantly feel like I'm forgetting something. But, nope, cooldowns are on cooldown, there is no gauge to overcap, and there is no DoT to maintain.

The serious point to take away from this is that "DPS" isn't merely a matter of button count.

I don't like DPSing. Seriously. I find healer DoTs infuriating in general, to mildly obnoxious at the best of times. SMN is far and away better in that sense as the rotation is flexible and interesting, but I don't have to keep my eyes glued to my hotbars or some gauge or a DoT tracker or the like. It's refreshing in a way, and probably the most enjoyable Job outside of healers. It's the only DPS Job that DOESN'T have something or other that makes it really annoying and un-fun to play, and is generally enjoyable when I do have to swap to a DPSer role (Thalia ques where healer ques are over 10 mins but DPS are instant, for example), and I can also Raise party members, meaning if my healers go down, it's not "Well, guess we wipe now".

EW SMN is the only somewhat fun DPS Job in the game. RDM would be a second, but for the fact the optimization on it is obnoxious and it has arguably the worst movement of any Job in the game.

Oddly, I find the Tanks better DPS Jobs than the DPS Jobs. WAR, PLD, and GNB are all more fun than any of the Melee Jobs because they aren't overbloated with so many oGCD weaves or CD attacks you only use once every 2 minutes, etc.

As always, I'm glad those other Jobs exist - for the people that like those sorts of things - but I'm glad there are exceptions for people who do not. BLM? I hate BLM. I think it and MNK are the two worst designed Jobs in the game. I actually LIKED MNK okay before EW, but have never EVER liked BLM, not since they forced me to level it in ARR to get Swiftcast.

But you know what?

I'm glad they're in the game for the people that enjoy them so those people have those Jobs they can hop on and find it engaging and enjoy playing.

I truly do wish this sentiment was reciprocated, as it would make a lot of the arguments and head banging amongst the playerbase go away instantly. If the game had a lot of different Jobs that played different, had different levels of skill, and instead of badmouthing some Jobs (or fellow players), folks picked their favorites and had fun with them. That's what I try to do myself, too. I very much have some I hate, but instead of demanding they be changed to suit me, I accept they are perfectly suited to other people and instead play the ones that fit me and merely ask that they not be changed to where they no longer do.

EDIT:

10 damage buttons is far too much, I think. 4-6 damage buttons with heavy kit interaction is what I would personally welcome.

Don't we...have 4-6 on most/all of the Healers?

It would be nice if they interacted better. With few exceptions (Misery, Energy Drain, Toxicon/Pneuma), they have very little interaction with the rest of the kit or with each other. And the base nuke/DoT combo is identical on all the healers (other than a SLIGHT tweak of sharing the same button on SGE and WHM's having a base damage making it a minor movement tool) and doesn't have any interaction (other than Kardia on SGE, which is identical across all its damage abilities). Could do with some more interactions among abilities for sure. Even simple things like AST's PvP Doublecast.

EDIT2:

Fun fact:

Despite being called "one (or two) button DPS" and "braindead", SMN itself has 13 DPS (or DPS adjacent like Searing Light and Swiftcast) separate buttons for the single target rotation. This increases by 4 if you add AOE, and that DOESN'T include Radiant Aegis, Lucid Dreaming, Addle, or Summon Carby. It's also counting Bahamut/Phoenix, Enkindle Bahamut/Enkindle Phoenix, Topaz Rite/Emerald Rite/Ruby Rite, Mountain Buster/Slipstream/Crimson Cyclone/Crimson Strike/Deathflare/Rekindle, Topaz Catastrophe/Emerald Catastrophe/Ruby Catastrophe, Ruin III/Astral Impulse/Fountain of Fire, and Tri-disaster/Astral Flare/Brand of Purgatory as, respectively, one button each, despite them technically being different attacks with different parameters and conditions.

So JUST counting Ruin 3, Ruin 4, Gemshine, Astral Flow, Enkindle Bahamut, Bahamut, Energy Drain, Fester, Summon Titan, Summon Garuda, Summon Ifrit, Swiftcast, and Searing Light and literally nothing else, SMN has 13 separate actions for its single target base rotation.

Yet, people call that "braindead" and (some) people dislike it. A lot.

So having 10 DPS actions isn't a magic number/catch-all solution, is, I guess, what I'm getting at here.

[ForsakenRoe]

I think that adding another 5 damage actions is just too much. Try 2 or 3 that are well designed and interact well with the kit. Like, which would we rather have, two buttons that are used often (like 15s or so) and have good interaction with other parts of the class's design (building a resource, reducing something else's CD, etc), or 5 buttons that are all like, 30s/1min/2min CDs and/or are just press-and-forget like our current DOTs are? Would SCH be improved by having two more DOTS that are also 30s like Bio is atm? Of course not, it's the fact that the DOT timers were staggered that made them interesting to play around

We can save the 4/5 additions for SGE probably, and have something like WHM only get 1 or 2 new buttons. If you design them well, even a small addition/change adds up to a massive overall impact on the rotation. So when we have the ability to make such small changes/additions, with such big 'butterfly effect' impact on the rotation, I don't think the 'number of added buttons' is quite so important

[Doozer]

I think healing would be infinitely more interesting if RDMs and SMNs didn't insist try to do the healer's job all the time under the guise of "I'm just trying to help". Helping by making us Glare/Broil/Malefic/Dosis bots, maybe.

[Sebazy]

<snip>

Whilst yes, I do think that our kits are too heavily laden with HPS abilities and a few more DPS buttons wouldn't go amiss. I'm of the option that a 40/60 split would probably be too much of a swing at this phase, or at least, it would alienate far too many people who are sold on the existing class fantasy regardless of it's flaws.

As far as DPS goes, it's not so much a case of quantity but rather the important thing is bringing a level of depth, complexity and skill expression to the DPS kit. Of the current healers, WHM is probably the closest to succeeding there IMHO. It offers a bit more reward than the others for thoughtful resource hoarding but compared to something like HW SCH, it's way off the mark. You don't need loads of abilities to achieve that, just look at what a game like Genshin achieves with effectively 3 buttons and a d pad.

[Zeastria]

I dont want more dps buttons! ; better rework the ones we have if need be
Also i dont want my healkit reduced - it what's gives this job(AST) depth lol.