Arcanist is weird

[Silverquick]

They didn't think current SMN through. Everything about it other than the 86 actions are vestiges of what it used to be and either don't fit (Carbuncle) or extremely tenuously fit (Energy Drain and its spenders, including Ruin 4).

(snip)

Today, giving it analogues to its 86 actions early might make it even more dull, though, because then you would get nothing but flashy effects all the way to 90. The job just really doesn't have much going on. It's like they implemented half its rework and said 'that's good enough. We'll do the rest later; don't want to have to make up new stuff for the expansion in a couple years.'

I actually think the Aetherpact kinda fits with the way they changed Arcanist.

Originally it was even wierder prior to Stormblood, back then it was actually more of an EQ Necromancer combined with Summoner (the Carbunkle/Egis). There you had 5 DoTs, 2 Bios and 3 Miasmas that all stacked, you had Bane which spread them out in an AoE, then you would use Garuda's "contagion" ability to extend the timers by 10 seconds.

It was always Ruin-based. Because your Ruin increased in potency by the number of DoTs stacked on the target. It took a while to spin it up, but once all the DoTs were stacked and you were spamming Ruin it was actually really good DPS.

They were removing that throughout Stormblood and SHB. What you saw in Stormblood and SHB were just the last vestiges of that. And only a small portion.
In Endwalker they totally removed that function other than very small names like Fester and Painflare. Aetherpact was not originally attached to the Dreadwyrm Trance. That was a Stormblood addition.

We knew they were slowly removing the Necromancer part of the Arcanist over time. We just didn't see the full results until now.

Problem being... those Necromancer abilities and Pet abilities were a LARGE portion of Gameplay for the Class as a whole.

It is OK to link Aetherpact to the Carbuncle summons... the problem is making up for all that extra gameplay that used to be a part of the class. You went from a full rotation of 5 DoTs + Pet Actions + Ruin Spam to just... Ruin Spam with only an occasional Aetherpact every 30 seconds or so for 3 former Pet Enkindles. That is why it is so plain and boring and just... one button spam.

It was ok to do the Aetherpact thing... BUT... they still need to make it more than just Ruin Spam on the Aetherpact Summons.

Hence why I suggested Carbuncle/Egi powers for the Deathflare/Enkindle buttons during the Carby Summons so its not just Ruin Spam, Ruin Spam, Ruin Spam. That's why I said the criticisms are actually right at early levels now.

[Rongway]

Except raw numbers from potency value are different than what you get at later levels.

This reply is largely irrelevant to what I said, though. The topic was specifically Aethercharge. Summon Bahamut and Summon Phoenix were never in question in this thread.

[SieyaM]

They absolutely could have, or even still could, given ruin some kind of version of fire/stone/aero instead of just using the ruin animations until level 72. Getting the aetherflow abilities at 86 does fill out the rotation and overall I do enjoy playing summoner when I do, but there is definitely room for more which I am hoping is what they are working towards with future expansions.

[Renathras]

Arcanist used to be a pet class. Those Carbuncles used to be actual pets, the Yellow Carby was a tank pet (with provoke), the Red Carby was a mage pet and the Blue Carby was a melee/healer pet. Now that they don't do anything anymore It kinda takes away from pretty much everything the Arcanist was, leaving it little more than a Ruin spamming class with no other function other than that.

Wait, what?

Titan/Topaz was a tank until ShB made them untargetable (and we got Aegis to try and "mimic" that tanking aspect), true...but the rest? Blue Carby was the base one and cast a ranged wind spell. It didn't melee or heal. And there was no Red Carby. At level 30 you got Ifrit without ever getting a Ruby Carby. You only had blue and yellow. Then as you kept leveling, yellow upgraded into Titan nugget and blue upgraded into Garuda. And there was never a healing one at all. Physic just didn't suck since 1-50 caster/healer gear from dungeons and quests and drops and crafting was all one set, so it had MND and INT on all the pieces, making Physic not suck, and I think SMN could access Cleric (not that it was useful since it swapped INT and MND stats but also did like a 20% nerf to healing...still clutch, but not overall useful.)

The only pet that really worked as a pet (that is, that you heavily interacted with and could change your gameplay) was Topaz/Titan since you could use it to tank some 4 man stuff if your Tank KOed or DCed and do single trash pack pulls, and when doing so, you would use Sustain to keep its health up, supporting the healer keeping it alive.

I do agree the level 86 stuff should be way lower, like level 60 or so. Or gain them as you go. Titan, in particular, feels "empty" without the 1-2 of the oGCD rocks since his main attack is instant cast but 2.5 sec CD. Garuda's 1.5 sec doesn't feel as empty, and Ifrit's casts and 1-2 charge/slam combo are separate from each other (not weaves) so doesn't feel bad either. But if they added Titan's earlier (say level 50 or 60) then Ifrit's later and finally Garuda's, instead of all at once at level 86, it would probably feel a lot better. Part of that was them wanting "new stuff" for EW, but once we get out of EW, they can do that (like how WHM's Solace is now level 52 or so, and I feel like there are other things they lowered the level on after the expansion they were released in was over.)

I agree SMN is fun to play and not a bad class at all, but the leveling could use a little love.

EDIT:

Today, giving it analogues to its 86 actions early might make it even more dull, though, because then you would get nothing but flashy effects all the way to 90. The job just really doesn't have much going on. It's like they implemented half its rework and said 'that's good enough. We'll do the rest later; don't want to have to make up new stuff for the expansion in a couple years.'

Honestly, I prefer that. Jobs should have most of their core kit down by level 50 or 60. Additions after that should just be minor tweaks to the rotation or additional oGCDs. Otherwise you have the problem like BLM where your rotation constantly changes based on what level range you're synced into, or PLD where half your rotation is just NOT THERE when you sync.

Contrast WAR, which has its full rotation more or less by level 50. The only real change you get later is Primal Rend. Everything else is upgrades and charges to things. RDM is another good case since its rotation is effectively complete at level 60 once you get Manification and Embolden, after that all you add are Holy/Flare, Scorch, and Resolution (button presses after the melee combo with the only one you think about at all is whether to use Holy or Flare), Reprise which you almost never use, and...that's...kind of it.

I do like that SMN doesn't radically change as it levels, making it more like RDM/WAR and less like BLM/PLD, which is a good thing. They feel a bit less empty while leveling and they don't teach bad habits to players or play your muscle memory against you when you do synced content. That's better design, not worse design.

[fulminating]

I disagree about warrior being complete by 50. Inner beast is strictly weaker than the storm's attacks, there is more gauge management as you only get the next 3 attacks direct critting under berserk rather than free gauge, the infuriate cooldown discount adds up to being fairly significant over a 2 minute stretch and I can't bring up gauge management for upheaval/onslaught because that went. I'd agree if you said 70 though, it hardly changes after that.

Next point is going to be I kind of like how black mage has a different feel at different level thresholds. I mainly play it in alliance roulette so that is probably a factor, but not knowing if I'm getting the relatively immobile proc based 50 rotation or more mobile (triplecast) fire 4 70 version is fairly fun. I liked the same in summoner, although at least a bit of that was being able to stand on the pad in lota and have my pet attack atomos helping make it feel less boring.

I don't think there's a correct answer, but an opposing perspective might be useful.

[Silverquick]

Wait, what?

Titan/Topaz was a tank until ShB made them untargetable (and we got Aegis to try and "mimic" that tanking aspect), true...but the rest? Blue Carby was the base one and cast a ranged wind spell. It didn't melee or heal. And there was no Red Carby. At level 30 you got Ifrit without ever getting a Ruby Carby. You only had blue and yellow. Then as you kept leveling, yellow upgraded into Titan nugget and blue upgraded into Garuda. And there was never a healing one at all. Physic just didn't suck since 1-50 caster/healer gear from dungeons and quests and drops and crafting was all one set, so it had MND and INT on all the pieces, making Physic not suck, and I think SMN could access Cleric (not that it was useful since it swapped INT and MND stats but also did like a 20% nerf to healing...still clutch, but not overall useful.).

No I distinctly remember 3 Carbys. One was a melee attacker only, one was the tank, and one was the mage that threw wind like Garuda.

Except you might be right about the colors. I seem to remember one Blue, one Green, and one Topaz. The melee pet had something like Carbunkle Gemstone or something like that which was either a heal or a regen. But he didn't provoke. While the Topaz carby was the Tank. Which is it actually true that you used this one exclusively except in dungeons. In dungeons because his Provoke would interfere with the Tank you had to use one of the others or they'd get pissed.

I said Ruby because I cannot account for the Green color one. So I thought my memory might be a little off since this was back in 2017 and I was playing on a different character than I am now. But they may have only added Ruby when they did the egi-glamours.

Still... bottom line here is... we do seem to agree where this job needs some work.

[Kimmay]

There were only ever 2 carbuncles, until /egiglamour. Emerald Carbuncle, that became Garuda Egi and Topaz Carbuncle that became Titan Egi. Both of those Carbuncles used renamed, weaker versions of every ability their Egi counter used. Summon 3 (Ifrit Egi) was Smn exclusive, and thus no Ruby Carbuncle was required. At no point ever has there been a Carbuncle that could heal, because at no point ever has there been an Egi that could heal. Smn has only ever had Physick, Sustain (for the pet), and Drain to heal. The blue Carbuncle, simply named Carbuncle, came with the rework as the default Carbuncle.

[LilimoLimomo]

FF14 does have a bit of a time-honoured problem of reworking classes in a way that messes the class up at early levels. Personally, I think level 90 SMN is one of the best designed classes in the game, but the early game experience with the class is definitely a bit clunky.

I don't want to be too hard on the devs, because I recognize that if you want to add new skills without bloating the buttons (especially for controller players), you need to remove some abilities as well; that's certainly a complex balancing act where you're unlikely to get everything you want.

I won't pretend to know the solution, just wanted to weigh in that it's a problem worth acknowledging, while also acknowledging the problem it's attempting to imperfectly solve.

[Silverquick]

There were only ever 2 carbuncles, until /egiglamour. Emerald Carbuncle, that became Garuda Egi and Topaz Carbuncle that became Titan Egi. Both of those Carbuncles used renamed, weaker versions of every ability their Egi counter used. Summon 3 (Ifrit Egi) was Smn exclusive, and thus no Ruby Carbuncle was required. At no point ever has there been a Carbuncle that could heal, because at no point ever has there been an Egi that could heal. Smn has only ever had Physick, Sustain (for the pet), and Drain to heal. The blue Carbuncle, simply named Carbuncle, came with the rework as the default Carbuncle.

Now I'm starting to remember it, actually we're both right.

That 3rd pet was the one that replaced Ifrit when you pulled your Summoner Stone. Most people never saw it or ever used it because they went Summoner without ever sticking to arcanist.

[Mikey_R]

Now I'm starting to remember it, actually we're both right.

That 3rd pet was the one that replaced Ifrit when you pulled your Summoner Stone. Most people never saw it or ever used it because they went Summoner without ever sticking to arcanist.

Arcanist only every had access to Summon and Summon II, which are emerald/topaz Carbuncles respectively. Summon III, which is Ifrit Egi is only available to Summoners and you can only become a Summoner after you have completed the Job Quests, which also gives you Summon III.

Arcanist never learned Summon III in any capacity.