If Healers had Tank rotations, what would they be?

[AmiableApkallu]

...because that's kinda what "I want A to be like B" tends to mean?

It isn't 1:1 right now but is already VERY SIMILAR (as I've pointed out comparing WHM to WAR)

In a word: No.

When someone says, "I want A to be like B," what they mean is that B has characteristics X, Y, and Z that they'd like either to be present in A or to be strongly reminded of by A's actual characteristics. Importantly, those characteristics might differ from person to person. If I tell you that I'd like a dinner that's like chicken soup, but not actually chicken soup, do you know what that means? Does anyone, unless I elaborate further?

For example, I went back to this thread's original post, and were I to flippantly respond to the WHM vs. WAR comparison there, it'd be with the Luke Skywalker meme, "Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong." The differences you seemingly devalue are the ones that cause me to choose WAR (or any other tank) over WHM (or any other healer) when doing, say, solo content (which would be FATEs these days). Those differences are such that while I might not accuse them of being the height of intellectual stimulation, I'd easily give them a try on WHM over what WHM is currently.

[Renathras]

I've already said what I would want for the healers, many times. Your personal preferences of design mean that, despite me saying 'I want healers to have a kit approaching (not even fully reaching) tank complexity', you perceive such changes as DPS level complexity.

No, I don't. And that should be so clear by now that it's a lie for you to say it.

I've shown what "tank level complexity" would be, and it's not what you want. So what you want is clearly not "tank level complexity".

Also: Lest you forget, SMN is a DPS Job. By definition, that is the floor of "DPS level complexity".

I think my bigger issue with some of your proposals is they're clunky for the sake of clunky.

I want healers to have engaging damage options for the stretches of time when no healing is required.

And what is "engaging"? Can you define that? And I mean...like very clearly and precisely. I know it's one of those "No one can tell you you're in love, you just know it" things, but no one can make suggestions based on things that aren't defined. For example, I find the healing downtime rotations right now "engaging", but clearly they aren't to you. So what would be? Is WAR's rotation engaging? SMN's? Would a simple 1-2-3 rotation and discarding the DoT be engaging?

In a word: No.

When someone says, "I want A to be like B," what they mean is that B has characteristics X, Y, and Z that they'd like either to be present in A or to be strongly reminded of by A's actual characteristics.

But...it...is.*

That's kind of my point. That and this:

Importantly, those characteristics might differ from person to person.

This is also the point I'm trying to impress on people.


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EDIT:

*More precisely on this:

As I've laid out - and part of the reason for the 1:1 comparisons - is that WHM's overall kit IS relatively similar to WAR's. The SPECIFIC differences are that WAR has a 1-2-3 instead of 1-1-1, and a -4 that requires 1-2 before it instead of -2 and which DOES stack and CANNOT be applied to multiple enemies. Other than that, most things are 1:1 other than Infuriate, which few people actually min max and, in practice, is just used on CD (1 charge) to keep the CD rolling.

These are not large changes, and some (Eye) are actually easier/less management than WHM's counterpart, leading to a comparable overall level of complexity.

As such, the only really significant differences I can see are the 1-2- part of the combo and Fell Cleave being an attack instead of a defensive CD (in the sense that Solace/Rapture being "heals" would, in this parallel, need to be defensive abilities on WAR).

So then I would say "If that is the distinction that matters - since everything else is the same - then what you're asking for is a 1-2- combo, Dia to be a self-buff that stacks to 60 instead of a DoT, and Solace/Rapture to be attacks instead of heals"?

[Renathras]

As far as the ideas themselves: It's really hard to compare the two. As much as people call Tanks and Healers "The Supports", they really are fundamentally different, depending on encounter design. Outside of ARPGs, there's no "useable at any time standard defense" for Tanks. ARPGs have "raise shield" (e.g. Oblivion) that you can do at any time, but tab-targeting MMOs tend...not to. Instead, they have various defensive abilities with different CDs that they cycle between.

Healers, by contrast...don't quite work like that. While they CAN (FFXIV high end healing is oGCD weave based using CD heals), it often isn't (lots of MMO healing is using "spamable" heals based on need; in FFXIV terms, it would be if you used Cure 1, Cure 2, and Medica for your baseline healing). Encounter design in FFXIV doesn't require that as much anymore because damage has changed (since ARR) and healers have so many oGCDs with CDs. But regardless, the simplest form would be a 1-2-3 combo with an upkeep buff instead of a DoT (basically WAR), an oGCD to weave, and a CD to use, oGCD heals to weave, and probably some "backup" GCD heal baseline.

So for the sake of argument, it would looks something like (for WHM):

Stone-Aero-Water (1-2-3 combo) + Dia (-4 self-buff, stackable to 60 sec); Holy-Glare(?) (1-2 AOE combo); about a half dozen oGCD heals (WAR in this case having Vengeance, Holmgang, Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting/Nacent, Bulwark, and Shake would be similar in effect to something like Lilybell, Benediction, Benison, Tetra, and Assize/Asylum); some 1 min output CD (Presence of Mind), something that builds to a big strike (Afflatus), the big strike itself, triggered by using the 1 min CD (Misery), and then probably have Cure 1 and Medica 1 (and Raise) as their backup stuff.

A not 1:1 similar thing would probably be...well, similar. Remove glare, remove Dia, Cure/Medica already have no parallel. But in effect, WHM being "more like tanks" (just using WAR as "the other easiest Job") would essentially look something like that. Basically, WHM as it is today, but with a 1-2-3 combo, Dia not being a DoT, and probably something like Fell Cleave to burn gauge on.

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So I guess my point is:

Do you guys want healers to be more like tanks (the above) or more like DPS?

Because those are not the same things. WHM as "more like DPS" would be more like probably SMN (which you guys dislike but might accept on a healer) or maybe RDM. I know some people fantasize it being more like BLM, but that wouldn't work well on a healer in general, and if it as used on any healer, it would be the hardest, most complex one (which...would sound more like SCH?)

[AmiableApkallu]

Do you guys want healers to be more like tanks (the above) or more like DPS?

How about: None of the above. (Unless I'm not included in "you guys." I have no idea who all that's actually supposed to refer to. It's not as if there's a Gnath hive mind hanging around these forums...)

I want healers to have engaging damage options for the stretches of time when no healing is required.

I want dungeons and trials and raids to dial up the damage and mechanics a notch or two, to better remind healers that they are, well, healers. (I mean, ARR normal mode content has a certain feeling of "dangerousness" that more recent content does not. /two cents)

[BRVV]

Healers would get a 1-2-3 for single enemies and a 1-2 for groups

At least more than currently. At least combos.

[ty_taurus]

Healers would get a 1-2-3 for single enemies and a 1-2 for groups

At least more than currently. At least combos.

Yay... A 1-2-3 Combo. The thought of that simply ferments my yeast.

[BRVV]

Yay... A 1-2-3 Combo. The thought of that simply ferments my yeast.

Press "F" to not fall asleep

[ty_taurus]

Press "F" to not fall asleep

[TheDustyOne]

Healers would get a 1-2-3 for single enemies and a 1-2 for groups

At least more than currently. At least combos.

[ForsakenRoe]

I've already said what I would want for the healers, many times. Your personal preferences of design mean that, despite me saying 'I want healers to have a kit approaching (not even fully reaching) tank complexity', you perceive such changes as DPS level complexity. You ask the question again and again but the answer does not change

If you truly believe that a WHM damage kit, where you press Banish every 6th GCD, Dia every 5th, and Glare when you can't do either, or a SCH kit with a 21s and a 15s DOT re-added, is 'DPS level complexity', A: I wonder what you make of actual DPS rotations like MNK or NIN's opener, and B: that I can create supposed 'DPS level complexity' with just three buttons will be taken as a compliment. And that's not even mentioning the fact that I'd leave SGE almost entirely untouched in it's damage kit, only changing Toxikon