Thoughts on Viper?

[Cynric]

You're actually quite right. There are so many ways they could make NIN so much better, which doesn't mean the job is bad, before adding another dual wielder which means looks like the true dualwielder of the game.

Personally, at least for me, Ninja using Ninjutsu already kind of makes it something that isn't really interesting as a dual wielder. When it comes to dual wielder jobs I'm not typically expecting to cast magic or Ninjutsu. I'm expecting to attack fast, maybe use poisons, some DoT damage, and be more rogue or assassin like. I can see Viper leaning into that archetype, but Ninja left that archetype after rogue sadly.

So while I understand the feeling that Ninja could be improved. I'm honestly more happy that a more Assassin/Rogue style job is coming out alongside it. They can still improve Ninja, I for one would say I'm not a fan of ten chi jin or being forced to stand still on melee jobs.(which honestly happens way too often) So it certainly has improvements to be made. But I think trying to make Ninja be more like Viper would've been more difficult than just making another job.

[BaconBits]

Y'all are not ready.

[Mayhemmer]

I'll be happy if it can give me any vibes of my old outlaw rogue.

Yes, that's sarcasm, I'm not actually expecting that. I'll actually be very happy if it doesn't have a 'haste' phase or MNK or NIN's level of GCD speed. I can jive with NIN up until the point where I feel like I'm literally locked out of playing at a higher level due to not being able to double weave within their already faster GCD due to ping. I can very comfortably play DRK and DNC, for example, with their slower overall speed. I can't do the same comfortably with NIN, or MCH during Hypercharge, or even Reaper during Enshroud, without clipping.

I'll take a consistent "normal" GCD speed with double weaving over being made to feel inefficient due to ping any day. Wonder if that's a hot take, but I can't help the ping sometimes.

[Connor]

Personally, at least for me, Ninja using Ninjutsu already kind of makes it something that isn't really interesting as a dual wielder. When it comes to dual wielder jobs I'm not typically expecting to cast magic or Ninjutsu. I'm expecting to attack fast, maybe use poisons, some DoT damage, and be more rogue or assassin like. I can see Viper leaning into that archetype, but Ninja left that archetype after rogue sadly.

.

My understanding was this is the exact reason Viper even exists.
Dual-wielding swords/daggers is an extremely popular rpg archetype, but Ninja’s version is naturally more build around the ‘Ninjutsu style’ fighting as opposed to be a dual swordsmanship fighting style.
Viper offers a job that’s purely just a dual wielding swordsman dps, without the magic or ninja frogs or anything like that. It’s a direct response to the many people who wanted to play Ninja/Rogue but didn’t want to deal with mudras and Ninja stuff

[Shurrikhan]

Y'all are not ready.

When do we get the side-holstered-shotgun, though, so that we can actually make use of our free hand?

[BaconBits]

When do we get the side-holstered-shotgun, though, so that we can actually make use of our free hand?

In our dreams unfortunately.

[Cynric]

My understanding was this is the exact reason Viper even exists.
Dual-wielding swords/daggers is an extremely popular rpg archetype, but Ninja’s version is naturally more build around the ‘Ninjutsu style’ fighting as opposed to be a dual swordsmanship fighting style.
Viper offers a job that’s purely just a dual wielding swordsman dps, without the magic or ninja frogs or anything like that. It’s a direct response to the many people who wanted to play Ninja/Rogue but didn’t want to deal with mudras and Ninja stuff

Yep! I remember when I first started playing FF14 I really wanted a Rogue or Assassin like job. But there were none so I just played monk. Then eventually rogue came out with Ninja, and at first I was super excited, then I played Ninja and I was a little disappointed. So when they said that Viper was for players like me I was pretty happy about it.

I understood that like, Thief typically does go into Ninja but I was still really disappointed, and that was 9-10 years ago basically. So it's been a long wait for something like this.
That's why for me even the little preview they showed and the small bit of info they shared about the job has gotten me very excited. My only hope at this point is that they don't somehow sneak a cast in there like they did with Reaper and Samurai.

[Connor]

I understood that like, Thief typically does go into Ninja but I was still really disappointed, and that was 9-10 years ago basically. So it's been a long wait for something like this.
That's why for me even the little preview they showed and the small bit of info they shared about the job has gotten me very excited. My only hope at this point is that they don't somehow sneak a cast in there like they did with Reaper and Samurai.

I feel like the Rogue into Ninja thing ended up a bit like Archer into Bard. The progression makes sense in the context of ffxiv, but for an ff player coming to the game for the first time, it’s just like ‘wait, so I have to be a Ninja to be a Thief?’ or vice-versa. Likewise with Rogue/Thief usually being a sneaky attacker but Ninja being a melee with abilities that simulate magic (ninjutsu). Just like how people come to Bard expecting harps and magic, then get laser arrows. And vice-versa for people who are hyped to play an Archer/Ranger then get turned into musicians against their will lol.

It’s nice that’s they’ve finally (tried to) address the whole issue with players wanting to play a ‘dual swordsman’ style job that isn’t as influence by a previously established identity (i.e ninjas needing ninjutsu stuff)

[Cynric]

I feel like the Rogue into Ninja thing ended up a bit like Archer into Bard. The progression makes sense in the context of ffxiv, but for an ff player coming to the game for the first time, it’s just like ‘wait, so I have to be a Ninja to be a Thief?’ or vice-versa. Likewise with Rogue/Thief usually being a sneaky attacker but Ninja being a melee with abilities that simulate magic (ninjutsu). Just like how people come to Bard expecting harps and magic, then get laser arrows. And vice-versa for people who are hyped to play an Archer/Ranger then get turned into musicians against their will lol.

It’s nice that’s they’ve finally (tried to) address the whole issue with players wanting to play a ‘dual swordsman’ style job that isn’t as influence by a previously established identity (i.e ninjas needing ninjutsu stuff)

Yeah the transition to Bard also threw me off. I would've liked to see like a Sniper or something. I feel like Bard has kind of suffered from people wanting to play a DPS archer but it being somewhat support focused. You tend to expect a bard to be support focused but it's hard when there's no alternative.

I feel like maybe the original plan was to have branching jobs like Smn/Sch did, but then they saw how bad that worked out and just scrapped the whole idea.

I think the job system itself has come a long way since back then. As you say it's nice to see them try to address this issue without just using ninja. I'm sure it'll be fun to play. So far they've done pretty good with their more original jobs like Reaper, so I can't wait to see more myself.

[VentVanitas]

Thief and Ranger definitely deserved to be their own jobs instead of being fused into Ninja and Bard respectively. even though the game has shifted away from debuffs and aggro management, I still feel like there's a lot you can do with Thief if it were given the chance to be real.

as for if Viper will bear any resemblance to Thief/Rogue/Assassin/whatever, we'll see in due time when we get more information on it next year and I kind of hope it does. I would be incredibly disappointed if Viper's only identity is that it has a hybrid weapon and that's it.