Thread: Red mage 7.0 Wishlist

Originally Posted by Rychu

here is "easy as shit" solution, have enchanted reprise grant a mana stack. Having enchanted reprise grant a mana stack would solve a lot of mobility problems since it will only take 15 black/white mana to do a finisher combo and you will have free movement during the entire thing. Potencies may have to be adjusted around since technically you can do a lot more finisher combos doing that, but honestly people would probably be fine with enchanted reprise being weaker if it means having that as an option. That way you actually have some decision making, "can I afford to hold my mana for a full sword combo which is stronger or do I need to just reprise for the sake of mobility and survivability during this mechanic?"

This would in some cases force triple E.Reprise, which costs 30% as much as a proper combo to start, 11% once you account for the Verfinishing rebate. To balance this, the entire 6 step sequence beginning with triple Reprise would probably need to no more than baseline Dualcasting damage. Dualcasting Verfastspell-Verslowspell is 144 p/s. So a triple E.Reprise option that balances for 15s of completely free mobility would mean E.Reprise would have to be about 40 potency per cast.

Fifteen seconds is a long time to be completely mobile for just 7|-4 Mana (the rebate from Verfinishing being 8|19). A proper combo costs 42|31 and only grants 12.7s of mobility, the first 3.5s of which force melee range. I would prefer the solution of E.Reprise costing a Polyglottish stack, which would add just 2 free move GCDs per minute.

Originally Posted by Rychu

2. Verfire and verstone are ironically too punishing when you are proccing them constantly. Picture this scenario. You are in p8s, just after doing your opener and you are building up mana for more finishers. You know Twist Nature is coming up and is a spread so you want to start your sword combo to have full mobility during the mechanic but both verfire and verstone keep proccing. You are now forced to waste one of them just so you can cast verflare/verholy because you were *too* lucky. This is just bad design to me, neither summoner nor black mage have a situation where you are too lucky with your procs. Summoner doesn't even have chance procs and black mages fire starter and thunder spell are literally just a "when it comes up press them". I would like to see a trait added that if you press verthunder/veraero while either of their respective spells are up, that verthunder/veraero have their damage boosted to compensate for the potential waster verfire/verstone that you can have. I don't know how much, but red mage is one of the only jobs where you can be punished for playing too well.

Procs are procs. Randomness and occasional overwrites are their nature. The procs in general aren't worth enough to worry about: the gain of 20p and 1 mana that you overwrite 0 to 2 times per 2min cycle still adds up to a single lost Jolt cast over the course of most 12 minute fights.

Originally Posted by Silverquick

No the calculations are incorrect and misleading.

I pointed out they only apply to one kind of content, second of all they don't apply to reality in that content. I didn't go into it, because I had already pointed out the problems with it.

But... first of all... spending that much time going to 100% Mana Gauge or thereabouts means you are going to be wasting time sitting there for no reason stationary.

Nor does it jive with the very things Rongway was advocating back in the day. I knew he was pushing something inaccurate from the beginning and something even he didn't believe in. He and other RDMS were the ones saying you don't need to go to 100% anymore just blow as many combos as you can as soon as you reach that 50% or therabouts mark. (Which by the way is something I implemented in my playstyle, because... it worked, even if back then it didn't net much... it does today.)

Secondly it does not apply the Verfire/verstone ready that the Finisher often invokes making the Mana Gain much faster than demonstrated in that chart... ergo those numbers are not accurate.

Thirdly it doesn't take into account any procs after that, which further reduce the dual casting which again make that not very accurate.

Reality is?

Likely you're only going to be doing 4-6 dual casts before blowing a 2000+ potency combo. Which is a far cry from 12.

All those things you're talking about are things my calculations accounted for. Insofar as total movement vs total casting is concerned, there is no difference between building up to a triple combo or using combos immediately as they become available. You still have to spend the same total time casting, and that table I wrote up includes the 8|19 or 19|8 Mana rebates from Verfinishing and lays out the best case scenario assuming 100% procs. If you're only thinking about one combo at a time you need to triple the number of casts you think you're doing because my calculations are for a 110-ish second rotation that includes three combos.



About deciding whether to bank combos or use them immediately: EW RDM adjustments gave us, in many but not all cases, the flexibility to use one combo per minute specifically as a movement tool while still having one combo available for the party burst. There's also the option to reserve one of those movement combos so that there are two combos available during the party burst (though Embolden and other 20s buffs only give you time for 1.5 combos). Most of the time there is no additional benefit to performing a triple combo because 1.5 of those combos are going to be outside of the party burst no matter what and it's really easy to overcap while doing so. The exception to this is during the potion burst window, which will cover about 2.5 combos. Regardless of which of these options you choose, the total time spent casting will be the same. None of these choices offers more total mobility than the others; the only difference is when that mobility is available.

Hey, so, I super get how frustrating it can be when other people don't understand things the first time, and I sometimes slip myself and let out an exasperated "clearly you don't understand..." when I'm replying hangry, but maybe let's not flat out call people stupid while we're trying to get them to understand.

I did not mean to offend, and Rongway was kind of right, I needed to sleep for a few hours. I apologize for being rude. I still stand by my assertions. There are plenty of reasons to hold off from doing your sword combo immediately, they come up very frequently during savage and ultimate encounters that you use the sword combo not for the big 2000+ potency of damage but purely for mobility and wasting it for damage will harm the progress of your entire group. If you disagree then it is what it is, but you have to at least come to terms with the calculations done by Rongway and myself.

I'm a little scared of what can be done with it in 7.0 because going from SB to ShB there was a lot of obvious things to fix, and they were fixed. Going into EW the only glaring issue was the AOE rotation, and that was fixed.
Right now if you ask me the job is in the best state it has been since it was introduced and I can't imagine ways to change it without breaking it and that's kinda scary.

There are two changes that I would like to see:
1. Make the melee combo a single button, there is literally no reason for it to be three separate buttons, and since most likely we gonna get at least two new actions that would help with button bloat.
2. Change 2.5s casts to 1.5s. Realistically RDM can't have the mobility of SMN without breaking Dualcast, but having 3.5/5 second of free movement is a pretty good deal.

My prediction is that the capstone action will be some spell that works like SAM Shoha, with Resolution giving a stack and consuming a number of these stacks in a big attack

Originally Posted by Deslyxic

2. Change 2.5s casts to 1.5s. Realistically RDM can't have the mobility of SMN without breaking Dualcast, but having 3.5/5 second of free movement is a pretty good deal.

This is a first suggested so far on this thread, and I mean I could see that. It wouldn't change the feel of the class by much, it would change our alignment with buffs
(I think)
I'm not gonna math it.

Healers do ultimates with a 1.5 gcd, and they don't have sword combo so yea it would probably fix our mobility. (lol please square still fix their mobility struggles too, ive seen how hard it can get on whm)

I was thinking yesterday of ways spell speed could become viable for rdm... It does get bothersome that casters sometimes struggle to share gear due to minor melds, especially if you're doing older stuff on sumn and SS has more viability. Red mage is always the one that needs to avoid SS like the plague while blm you can just bite whatever GCD bullet you have and still compete with other blms.

Originally Posted by Milkbeard

This is a first suggested so far on this thread, and I mean I could see that. It wouldn't change the feel of the class by much, it would change our alignment with buffs
(I think)
I'm not gonna math it.

Not anything to worry about. Deslyxic's recommendation only shortens the cast time, not the recast time. The 5s Dualcast period would remain the same; we'd just have an extra 0.5s of mobility per Dualcast, which could be a lot of extra mobility, actually.