Thread: Red mage 7.0 Wishlist

Originally Posted by Silverquick

No I'm really not,

If you are really doing it that way, you are spending way too much time building up to 100 Mana when you don't need to anymore. In reality you only need to build up to 50 mana to do a combo, I go 60 for a buffer but not always. The Dual Casts are about half what you demonstrated in your chart. It's why I'm sitting in melee all the time. You get even a single proc which you usually do after a finisher, and you're building much faster even than that. The only time I'm up at 100 Mana is when I'm building up for Boss fight with trashmobs in dungeon or Alliance Raid for the next fight.

*homie gets shown definitive calculations of time to prove how long it takes to build up the same mobility as summoner* "nuh uhhhhh*

Originally Posted by Silverquick

Secondly you are assuming everything is an 8-Man what you showed only applies there, not to Alliance Raids or Expert Dungeons.

That's because the game is balanced around the 8-man content, the rest of the game's battle content like alliance raids, deep dungeons, and casual MSQ progression all balance themselves around the players that do savage and ultimate because it's easier to do it that way.

Originally Posted by Silverquick

But even if you were to assume that, You're still spending time building to 100 when you no longer have to do that. It's much quicker these days. Yeah Enchanted Reprise kinda falls into the unused toolset now, but doing faster finishers will do more damage in the end, because that's the big damage portion and you do it much faster and more of them.

That is and I mean this quite literally, not how it works. It still takes almost the same amount of time to build up your mana between the old 80/80 and the current 50/50 "Developer confirmed", you are just able to build up more of it. And process this for me, saving 50/50 mana and doing your combo does not provide more damage "by doing faster finishers will do more damage in the end" than saving almost 100 and doing them both back to back...because you'll still have to save up another 50/50 mana to so a second combo.

Originally Posted by Silverquick

And it is because of that, and because you end up just sitting in melee range all the time that I am starting to suggest staying power in melee. Hence the Adlo idea and DEFINITELY extending the Magic Barrier to be the equivalent time to Embolden.

I agree. Completely actually, for magick barrier at least. It is incredibly stupid that a spell we get at such a high level provides so little overall. It is super ironic that the same expansion that Red Mage gets a magic only utility spell, is also the same expansion that has the harder physical damage healer check we have ever seen. I am personally more of the opinion that it should mitigate all damage by 10% and increase the duration to 15 seconds. The 5% healing boost is also so small it might as well not be there.

Originally Posted by Rychu

*homie gets shown definitive calculations of time to prove how long it takes to build up the same mobility as summoner* "nuh uhhhhh*

No the calculations are incorrect and misleading.

I pointed out they only apply to one kind of content, second of all they don't apply to reality in that content. I didn't go into it, because I had already pointed out the problems with it.

But... first of all... spending that much time going to 100% Mana Gauge or thereabouts means you are going to be wasting time sitting there for no reason stationary.

Nor does it jive with the very things Rongway was advocating back in the day. I knew he was pushing something inaccurate from the beginning and something even he didn't believe in. He and other RDMS were the ones saying you don't need to go to 100% anymore just blow as many combos as you can as soon as you reach that 50% or therabouts mark. (Which by the way is something I implemented in my playstyle, because... it worked, even if back then it didn't net much... it does today.)

Secondly it does not apply the Verfire/verstone ready that the Finisher often invokes making the Mana Gain much faster than demonstrated in that chart... ergo those numbers are not accurate.

Thirdly it doesn't take into account any procs after that, which further reduce the dual casting which again make that not very accurate.

Reality is?

Likely you're only going to be doing 4-6 dual casts before blowing a 2000+ potency combo. Which is a far cry from 12.

I’m not an RDM main (more of a rdm casual lol) but I’m all for it getting more support options. Personally I’d like to see at least one debuff in Red Mage’s kit since it’s the only thing it’s really ‘missing’ to complete the ‘Jack-of-all-trades’ fantasy. It has damage (ofc), healing and resurrection, damage and defensive buffs (Embolden / Magick Barrier), so I think some kind of debuff spell would be the perfect way to round things for the job.

Maybe like PvP Frazzle that increases damage taken by the enemy. They could have it give a defensive effect depending on mana balance, like more White making it give a small HP shield to party/target.

Also I don’t think ‘giving it a defense buff’ means it’s going to have sub-Dancer levels of dps. I mean, if that’s how they balance things how in the world is Black Mage not penalised for Manaward or Aetherial Manipulation. Both can be pretty significant for survival. I’m not seeing Reapers being heavily taxed for being able to give a party wide Regen either…

Originally Posted by Milkbeard

Do not give anymore OGCD moves. There is currently too many OGCDs in the opener. Another OGCD would certainly result in a triple weave (ew).

Personally I'd be happy with a few more oGCD moves. As soon as you hit Scorch in the opener, you've got room for more oGCDs without triple weaving and still within buffs. Obviously wouldn't want a ton more, but we're unlikely to get more than one or two new ones regardless. Don't have anything specific I really want from oGCDs, so wouldn't be upset to not see any new ones, but I don't think triple weaving (or more likely, leaving something out of the opener) would be a real issue even with more oGCDs to hit.

Originally Posted by Milkbeard

Give red mage a way of building resource during down time. Other than manafication. Manarushing misaligns parts of the swordcombo with embolden, which isn't ideal in my opinion - its a weakness brought on from downtime, not a strength. Popping manaification when a boss is gone, i'm looking at you A8s and the ultimates, feels bad.

-OR-

Give red mage a time built resource like xenoglossy or afflatus misery. The ultimate fights feature too much downtime and they have fallen behind summoner and black mage in this expansion due to those classes benefiting greatly from down time as of 6.0.

Originally Posted by Milkbeard

Downtime
Resource builders struggle in fights with down time - we need a fix for that.

"I want a vercure during downtime that gives me a free bahamut"

We have a weird nichie where vercuring during down time isn't a bad idea (unless you're 3 sword hits into your finisher but that's an entirely different niche set of scenarios).

---

(...)but maybe, our resource building flaw could be solved by having us do something that benefits the party during down time. A meditation, or dance, something that perhaps supports and sets us up to damage.

Don't really agree with some of the specifics here (don't really want us to just get a copy of Xenoglossy or Afflatus Misery), but in the broader strokes, I do like the idea of us getting something that helps us during downtime a bit more than just "Vercure to get a free Dualcast when the boss shows back up." Something like Samurai's Meditation would actually be cool; slow build up of gauge while we hover in place and/or (visually) steal BLM's Leylines to store up more power for later.

Originally Posted by Milkbeard

Maneuverability
A lot of people have personal examples of how that has been rough this expansion. The latter half of this expansions content demanded some movement for some mechanics that were beyond the red mage toolkit so they'd miss out on damage or generally not have as much fun trying to pull it off as other classes. Try and share what you wish you could have had to solve this that other classes may have.

Honestly, I... haven't personally found RDM mobility to be a huge issue, but I also haven't been doing Savage for various reasons (didn't do the second tier on RDM, haven't done anything past P9S in the third tier), so some of the rougher movement mechanics there might be the ones in question that I've not encountered.

The movement in the Extremes has been fun to optimize, though. The 6.4 EX is one I've seen some complaints about, but I really enjoyed figuring out how to best make use of all my movement tools there to not lose uptime without failing any mechanics.

A funny (but likely not happening) way to help mobility issues would be for instant casts (Swiftcast and Acceleration) to still give Dualcast, which would make them give two instants instead of one.

Originally Posted by jdgev

You're not gonna get more DPS (relative to other jobs), because there is no way in heck they will make Red Mage deal more damage than Summoner from a design perspective. That's never going to happen because Red Mage is a hybrid support-DPS job by the jobs design, and by long standing FF tradition.

So yeah, at least give RDM:
a) More support so it justifies it's lower damage (it's not a tax it's intentional, calling it a tax is ridiculous when it's literally the jobs design to use support).
b) More tools/options to make use of their main ability: dual cast.
c) A mechanic/bar that can that be toggled between white/black magic boost like they have on PVP, boosting support abilities when White, and boosting damage when Black or altering effects of certain abilities like in PVP.

Red Mage is a jack of all trades, master of none type of job. It's never going to be a high damage dealing job, just as Black Mage will never get a heal or a res.

PS: Checked and yeah RDM is basically on par or very slightly bellow SMN in damage. Exactly as it's intended. So yeah, we aren't getting more damage unless it's by non-intentional imbalance.

Yeah, the comments from the devs on the 6.5 changes made it pretty clear that RDM has low damage by intent, and the only way that would change is to remove their support actions, which I do not want to happen myself.

a) I like the idea of more support, though I don't have a lot of faith that extra non-damage-related support buttons would really feel worth it? Between healers and tanks, there's so much free healing and mit that it doesn't feel like there's much a RDM could bring to that table that'd be worth it.

b) I like this in concept though I'm admittedly struggling to think of what that could be...?

c) Personally I like an idea I saw in another thread where the Black/White shift mechanic turns into a Dance Partner-like mechanic instead, with both active at once and buffing other party members; I can't help but feel like if RDM had a White/Black Shift mechanic that was like PvP, it would just become "Black Shift bc damage is king." I suppose if it was something like "White Shift in prog, Black Shift any other time" it could work?

Originally Posted by Connor

Personally I’d like to see at least one debuff in Red Mage’s kit since it’s the only thing it’s really ‘missing’ to complete the ‘Jack-of-all-trades’ fantasy. It has damage (ofc), healing and resurrection, damage and defensive buffs (Embolden / Magick Barrier), so I think some kind of debuff spell would be the perfect way to round things for the job.

Maybe like PvP Frazzle that increases damage taken by the enemy. They could have it give a defensive effect depending on mana balance, like more White making it give a small HP shield to party/target.

I think Frazzle overlaps a bit with Embolden, in regards to functionality. They're both "party does more damage", and I'm unsure they'd want to give RDM a second raid buff like that.

Maybe this (and my above comment regarding Black/White Shift) is me giving in to the devs and the "damage meta" too much, but I don't really like the idea of Frazzle swapping between support and damage based on mana, since it'd quickly become "always be higher on Black mana".

Originally Posted by Connor

I’m not an RDM main (more of a rdm casual lol) but I’m all for it getting more support options. Personally I’d like to see at least one debuff in Red Mage’s kit since it’s the only thing it’s really ‘missing’ to complete the ‘Jack-of-all-trades’ fantasy. It has damage (ofc), healing and resurrection, damage and defensive buffs (Embolden / Magick Barrier), so I think some kind of debuff spell would be the perfect way to round things for the job.

Maybe like PvP Frazzle that increases damage taken by the enemy. They could have it give a defensive effect depending on mana balance, like more White making it give a small HP shield to party/target.

Also I don’t think ‘giving it a defense buff’ means it’s going to have sub-Dancer levels of dps. I mean, if that’s how they balance things how in the world is Black Mage not penalised for Manaward or Aetherial Manipulation. Both can be pretty significant for survival. I’m not seeing Reapers being heavily taxed for being able to give a party wide Regen either…

Now red mage does have a defensive buff in magick barrier and an offensive buff in embolden that makes the enemy take more damage already. Building upon your idea more, would you like to see those two moves condensed into one button, or perhaps both are provided for a longer duration and it shifts between the two based on preference or mana balance?

Originally Posted by mallleable

An idea that's been rattling around in my head is giving RDM the ability to force their mana gauge to become imbalanced, while giving them access to melee combos that cost either black or white mana. How I imagine it would work is RDM would get an ability called Vertriple or something which allows them to instantly cast Verthunder II/III or Veraero II/III, the spell hits three times, and the mana generation is tripled for each hit, forcing an imbalance which can be corrected by spending the imbalanced mana on an astral or umbral melee combo. Vertriple would be on a 60 or 90 second cooldown. I think it would be a good mobility tool as well as just varying up the kinds of melee combos that can be preformed.

Nice, there is a lot going on with this design idea, but i'm kind of here for it. It isn't too derivative due to the nature of verflare giving more white mana and verholy giving more black mana. I think this kind of change would see the skill ceiling being raised, but could also be very rewarding.

Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

1. Buff Enchanted Moulinet
2. Buff Embolden & Magick Barrier
3. Increase Verfire/Verstone timers from 30 seconds to 32 (JK, but not really)

You share the same sentiment as a lot of others. Simple actions such as these would protect the classes current flow while making it more competitive, which many seem to value.

Are you comfortable with the current status quo of the red mage glamour scene? lol