Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons

[Zairava]

How to destroy a fine skill, genius.

That's more or less an issue with enemies not hitting hard enough, but we've seen what happens when enemies hit hard in things like Bardam's Mettle or even Tower of Zot, there's a bit of a freak out. It's not really the fault of the skill, it just benefits pulling massively. Plus again, AoE is only part of the equation and you can't ignore the full picture.

That's a more common one with Shake it Off, that's part of what makes it especially handy with the only big boost to the shield coming at the expensive of your own mitigation. The cooldown is long enough though that it isn't really easy to chain.

Well then good luck seeing more threads on DRK along with Abyssal Drain not getting changed to use up MP instead since it doesn't need it. Funny that you mention burst though since that's what every tank does only GNB has long combo chains, and DRK just empties MP to a certain point. Comes down to preference at that point, I like having my strong tank though, so we can agree to disagree then.

I want you to explain to me, in detail, just exactly how Bloodwhetting being made per use or a portion of damage dealt is going to all of a sudden break Warrior to pieces in dungeons. You are stubbornly dying on this hill that somehow it's a bad thing that making it necessary to use more of your toolkit, which would: a) increase player interaction/engagement with its toolkit and b) increase healer engagement.

I have yet to see anybody "freak out" over the increased need to heal or the notable damage intake in Bardam's or Zot, or on-launch Holminister. It's a good thing when the pace is shaken up sometimes. You know what happens the majority of times if the worst happens and the party wipes? The players attempt again or do it slower depending on: a) what happened and b) why it happened. It really is not a big deal.

Yeah, every job in the game bursts, that wasn't the point I was making. DRK is a complete snoozefest outside of its bursts. That's the point. GNB has a burst every 1m, a bigger burst every 2m, and a mini burst every 30s, it's the most active and why you don't see many people complain about GNB's burst downtime.

If this hasn't been made clear by now, I don't care if people complain about DRK's sustain. Whether I want old Abyssal Drain back or not (I do), DRK functions and performs perfectly fine in dungeons. If they don't want to put any effort into knowing their job or kit then maybe they shouldn't be playing the job or complaining about something they refuse to learn in the first place.

It doesn't matter how mindnumbingly boring and simple you make any job or role, the people who don't want to learn or put any effort in simply won't, they will forever not care whether it's simple or isn't, and trying to cater to those players will only make the people who already enjoyed the job unhappy at the very least.

[MikoRemi]

Snip.

Besides it just being unnecessary compared to bigger issues like Dark Mind, how much healing has to be cut for you lot to be satisfied? If by chance WAR’s are still able to continue healing fine hypothetically, would that be where it ends? I doubt it. People would still whine until it couldn’t sustain itself. It’s a simple thing with nerfs, the nerf hammer hardly has an end, buffing can only go so far. It’s funny too since Bloodwhetting hasn’t been touched at all, that’s quite a rare feat for anything, so if it was truly an issue, something would’ve been done.

I see someone wasn’t around in Stormblood. It gets tiring very quickly when a repeatable becomes a slog just because of lazy players. It takes what can be a 13 minute run to a 20 minute run which adds up over the course of content. I suppose you also didn’t know what content like Orbonne Monastery was like at first release where disbands tend to occur because of how strict it was. That’s more of an hour wasted. Believe me, whether it’s a spike in damage or mechanics for casual content, it was not pretty.

GNB is the more active tank, with DRK coming in second. So not that hard to follow. PLD and WAR by comparison are the slower alternatives. Tank’s have hardly ever been that engaging in their rotations though unless you want to count TP which sucked for everyone back in the day. If we had more GCD’s though it’d help which is where combo consolidation could occur to open up for more options. Personally WAR is a fine time, Stormblood it wasn’t all that much more despite the insistence with stance dancing and such, but like all tanks they were certainly weaker at the time.

You don’t care, the threads aren’t all you though. DRK can handle ok, but it’s certainly the harder of the tanks when it comes to dealing with a snafu.

Certainly true, but guard rails have been implemented from every expansion up to SHB. From the button bloat hell of HW to the party responsibility in SB, it all had to change and fortunately it makes for smoother runs as a whole. Meanwhile in Extreme and onward, it still remains crazy but you only deal with the fight mechanics and DPS checks instead of all of that plus your job. The people who don’t learn get the boot, the ones who do can ascend.

If you and the minority want to rag on WAR then I guess you’re free to continue. Don’t be surprised when more threads pop off though.

[Zairava]

Besides it just being unnecessary compared to bigger issues like Dark Mind, how much healing has to be cut for you lot to be satisfied? If by chance WAR’s are still able to continue healing fine hypothetically, would that be where it ends? I doubt it. People would still whine until it couldn’t sustain itself. It’s a simple thing with nerfs, the nerf hammer hardly has an end, buffing can only go so far. It’s funny too since Bloodwhetting hasn’t been touched at all, that’s quite a rare feat for anything, so if it was truly an issue, something would’ve been done.

I see someone wasn’t around in Stormblood. It gets tiring very quickly when a repeatable becomes a slog just because of lazy players. It takes what can be a 13 minute run to a 20 minute run which adds up over the course of content. I suppose you also didn’t know what content like Orbonne Monastery was like at first release where disbands tend to occur because of how strict it was. That’s more of an hour wasted. Believe me, whether it’s a spike in damage or mechanics for casual content, it was not pretty.

GNB is the more active tank, with DRK coming in second. So not that hard to follow. PLD and WAR by comparison are the slower alternatives. Tank’s have hardly ever been that engaging in their rotations though unless you want to count TP which sucked for everyone back in the day. If we had more GCD’s though it’d help which is where combo consolidation could occur to open up for more options. Personally WAR is a fine time, Stormblood it wasn’t all that much more despite the insistence with stance dancing and such, but like all tanks they were certainly weaker at the time.

You don’t care, the threads aren’t all you though. DRK can handle ok, but it’s certainly the harder of the tanks when it comes to dealing with a snafu.

Certainly true, but guard rails have been implemented from every expansion up to SHB. From the button bloat hell of HW to the party responsibility in SB, it all had to change and fortunately it makes for smoother runs as a whole. Meanwhile in Extreme and onward, it still remains crazy but you only deal with the fight mechanics and DPS checks instead of all of that plus your job. The people who don’t learn get the boot, the ones who do can ascend.

If you and the minority want to rag on WAR then I guess you’re free to continue. Don’t be surprised when more threads pop off though.

I was there in Stormblood, and I was a new player, tanking the whole bit at that, who just started when Stormblood launched, but hey thanks for assuming I wasn't.

You could literally just merge Bloodwhetting into one ability again (Nascent Flash) and make it function exactly like it did in Shadowbringers and you would see less complaints, that's it.

I revel in chaos, and wiping really isn't a huge issue. We need to try again, so what? If the player is really being that much of a nuisance they aren't even doing the basic fundamentals of their role you can kick them in place of someone else.

I felt immensely more immersed and engaged with nearly every kit during Stormblood, even while leveling the entire way through. Job design was as its peak then. I want to be engaged with my job not be asleep at my keyboard. TP deserved to rot, though.

The threads aren't all me, and the people who complain about it don't represent everyone either. I rarely see anybody actually complain about it, just "yeah it's harder on DRK in dungeons because of the lack of sustain but when you learn how to use your defensives it's plenty powerful enough"

I'll take pre-nerf Orbonne anyday over the snorefest that is what they currently are. Alliance specific mechanics are sorely lacking.

[MikoRemi]

Snip

So was I, in fact my very first job was Marauder fancy that. Hard to tell with the way you're talking like a SHB player.

Besides being a pain in the ass in solo content again since it requires a partner, you'd get complaints since Bloodwhetting is out, it exists, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. It would undoubtedly make things worse, but let's assume it's just like normal in dungeons. Ok then who cares, why waste the time to revert it then. The only complaints I hear either way are just portions of the forums, nobody else asks for WAR nerfs.

Good for you, if I'm gonna repeat content over and over for leveling or otherwise, I'd rather not waste mine or anyone else's time when running content. Considerations for work and school and all that jazz. Unfortunately the majority of the playerbase don't have that mentality so we get some bad runs. You can also only kick so much until you get a group of friends that fight back against the kick, so good luck with that especially with most players not paying attention to others much. Time wasted is time wasted at the end of the day.

The idea was great, but the execution unfortunately lead to player responsibility to manage aggro, MP, TP and all that jazz which if you are indeed a SB player, you cannot tell me with a straight face that people were doing that the majority of the time. Most players can't even handle using Diversion let alone any actual "complicated" buttons.

Literally just the front page has a fair amount of DRK posts. Yes you could make DRK's defensives work ok because it's a dungeon at the end of the day, but besides the sustain well pull back to Dark Mind once more. In an age where Addle can mitigate both physical and magical damage, PLD can block magic with their shield(used to not), and most tanks can mitigate all damage, why does DRK have to be the magic tank again?

Considering how bad people do in the latest raid when it's relatively simple, I'd rather not. If I want that kind of content I'll get in the next "Eureka" because me and the others will know what were signing up for. If the players would up themselves then I'm sure we would've kept to the SB design, but you can see why that's not the case, and as we both know, there's no depths people won't sink down to. Just that by SHB and EW, that hasn't been nearly as much of a problem with the new guard rails. Not everything from the old days was amazing and unless the playerbase actively try to improve themselves on a major scale, I'll at least keep WAR how it is since adjustments could be done to actual problem jobs, and that way I can mitigate the problems there are with performance.

[Zairava]

Besides being a pain in the ass in solo content again since it requires a partner, you'd get complaints since Bloodwhetting is out, it exists, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. It would undoubtedly make things worse, but let's assume it's just like normal in dungeons. Ok then who cares, why waste the time to revert it then. The only complaints I hear either way are just portions of the forums, nobody else asks for WAR nerfs.

I'm referring to after they made it so you could use Nascent Flash without a partner, it was near universally agreed that it should've been usable by yourself from the get-go.

You aren't going to see much because the vast majority of people: a)Are silent and will leave or stay without providing thoughts b) don't care and just play it to play it

Good for you, if I'm gonna repeat content over and over for leveling or otherwise, I'd rather not waste mine or anyone else's time when running content. Considerations for work and school and all that jazz. Unfortunately the majority of the playerbase don't have that mentality so we get some bad runs. You can also only kick so much until you get a group of friends that fight back against the kick, so good luck with that especially with most players not paying attention to others much. Time wasted is time wasted at the end of the day.

I don't know if you thought I meant just to do it to anybody underperforming but that isn't what I meant. I was talking about people griefing the party and refusing to actually being a detriment.

The idea was great, but the execution unfortunately lead to player responsibility to manage aggro, MP, TP and all that jazz which if you are indeed a SB player, you cannot tell me with a straight face that people were doing that the majority of the time. Most players can't even handle using Diversion let alone any actual "complicated" buttons.

Aggro Management is controversial, I enjoyed it personally but I doubt they'd ever try to revamp it. I will repeat that TP deserves to stay in the grave, but I remember seeing that actively, people would have macro's for requesting MP/TP. They weren't complicated they quite literally explained themselves, Mana Shift really did not have any good reason to be removed.

Literally just the front page has a fair amount of DRK posts. Yes you could make DRK's defensives work ok because it's a dungeon at the end of the day, but besides the sustain well pull back to Dark Mind once more. In an age where Addle can mitigate both physical and magical damage, PLD can block magic with their shield(used to not), and most tanks can mitigate all damage, why does DRK have to be the magic tank again?

Again, could just slap 10% flat mit on Dark Mind or something of the sort.

Again part 2: Because that's Dark Knight's niche. Remove that and you're homogenizing it further.

Unfortunately in the attempt to keep jobs "unique", people want to keep some of the associated negatives while trying to hurt the other jobs that are doing fine. Bit of a lost cause here I'm afraid.

I do want DRK to get better though, and at least we have some people with stronger voices outside the forums who will give DRK a little boost without tearing down anyone else. It's how it is when people aren't used to games that offer nerfs like candy on Halloween and don't understand how it not only hurts but tends to not end after the first touch. Let's hope by Dawntrail that there will be some good upcoming abilities!

If you consider me actually needing to monitor my defensives and put some slight amount of effort into surviving, thus being more engaged in my kit "Negative", then yeah sure I guess. I'd like to have the healer need to heal me, because, ya know, they're a healer.

If you're going to give me some sort of sustain on DRK, make it like Death Strike on WoW. While I'm not entirely for merging Carve and Spit and Abyssal Drain, they could do it with that in mind.

I rarely call for nerfs to anything, but WAR's dungeon sustain is so powerful it actively hinders the enjoyment of the job for me, so yeah, I'm going to put my voice in there to revert it to Shadowbringers. (and since the clarification was needed just before, AFTER they made it so that you could use it without a partner.)

[MikoRemi]

Snip.

Refer back to the point of; " Ok then who cares, why waste the time to revert it then".

Meanwhile the complaints that are here rarely translate over for better or worse, although wanting to bring something back tends to work. Hello Scholar's Energy Drain.

If Cure I spamming wasn't griefing, if not using your role actions wasn't griefing, when somehow seeing the same thing 4+ time in a row after being explained time and time again doesn't somehow get across, when melee's refuse to AoE on groups of enemies, I'm not quite sure what else there is to it. I suppose you can throw in the odd RDM in early content where your tank stance wasn't available yet ripping aggro from you. Thankfully you already mention that in your post.

NA can barely handle markers let alone macros. Assuming you didn't get the people who turn chat off or tunnel vision of course. Not to mention communicating to the people who don't want to use those skills in the first place just leads to falling on deaf ears.

So you're ok with Dark Mind getting better, yet you also say removing DRK's "niche" would homogenize it further. Yeah, I want it to be better. This isn't even niche for the sake of being niche, you're just asking for a worse tank at that point. Might as well have PLD's "niche" of not being able to block magic back. Or how Berserk used to give Pacification as a "niche" thing that required Esuna. Or DRG's niche of dying easily to magical raidwides. Maybe even DRK's old Living Dead just to be the tank with the worst invuln for its standout "niche". Just mitigate all damage like a normal tank without any terrible downsides.

At that point one can spread out and figure out how to make it do good stuff in its own way. Again with Blood Price healing back 50% damage taken per hit, it wouldn't full heal but it'd be quite strong on slowing down the death of HP which combined with shields could make it purely devastating on top of the magical burst it offers. Lean into the MP management like usual but keep a general kit. We all have things like Rampart after all, and it was certainly "niche" when DRK's Shadow Wall had an extremely long cooldown for no reason compared to things like Sentinel or Vengeance. Were all tanks, but WAR is slow and steady with beefy health and fun cleaving, PLD has ranged magic and very good overall support, DRK is a magical burst who is a god with shielding, and GNB is a higher action tank that can burst out some nice damage while managing cartridges vs a standard gauge or MP and being a middle ground defensively.

That's a better route to go instead of keeping some terrible weaknesses for the sake of it.

[Zairava]

So you're ok with Dark Mind getting better, yet you also say removing DRK's "niche" would homogenize it further. Yeah, I want it to be better. This isn't even niche for the sake of being niche, you're just asking for a worse tank at that point. Might as well have PLD's "niche" of not being able to block magic back. Or how Berserk used to give Pacification as a "niche" thing that required Esuna. Or DRG's niche of dying easily to magical raidwides. Maybe even DRK's old Living Dead just to be the tank with the worst invuln for its standout "niche". Just mitigate all damage like a normal tank without any terrible downsides.

At that point one can spread out and figure out how to make it do good stuff in its own way. Again with Blood Price healing back 50% damage taken per hit, it wouldn't full heal but it'd be quite strong on slowing down the death of HP which combined with shields could make it purely devastating on top of the magical burst it offers. Lean into the MP management like usual but keep a general kit. We all have things like Rampart after all, and it was certainly "niche" when DRK's Shadow Wall had an extremely long cooldown for no reason compared to things like Sentinel or Vengeance. Were all tanks, but WAR is slow and steady with beefy health and fun cleaving, PLD has ranged magic and very good overall support, DRK is a magical burst who is a god with shielding, and GNB is a higher action tank that can burst out some nice damage while managing cartridges vs a standard gauge or MP and being a middle ground defensively.

That's a better route to go instead of keeping some terrible weaknesses for the sake of it.

Well, yeah, it would. You would be making it just universal like every other tank at that point. I could go on what I think would be good niches or bad (especially paladin being unable to block magic damage or Berserk's Pacification) but I don't think we'll get anywhere. At this stage, if we're going to make DRK the "god of shielding" then let us pursue our strength of that instead of just being given self-healing.

I honestly don't think we'll ever come to some sort of agreement trying to convince one or another the otherwise on most fronts. You hold different viewpoints than I do and neither of us are going to back down from them.

[MikoRemi]

As for that extra response, you want some healing? Go into Extreme or Savage. Especially Ultimate. Tell me how good it feels to take a Homing Laser to the face without having all your cooldowns present, or invulning. I personally prefer doing both to save the OT some trouble.

I don't play WoW so that example doesn't mean anything to me. If it means it'll get sustain worth a damn though so it's in line with the other tanks though, sure.

Meanwhile the dungeon sustain makes it a godsend for if the healer either dies, disconnects, or is in all manners of incompetence. This also goes into Eureka content with mass pulling, Deep Dungeon content when I need to survive a luring trap, and so on. Can't separate them since skills carry over either way. I enjoy the thrill of surviving. If you don't like it then that sucks then, DRK is just for you then. Just like the many threads that want BLM to not be a turret with slow casts, I'm fine with it existing(even if it's getting more mobility than RDM anyway), but there's other classes available. However this thread asked for DRK stuff specifically, and so I provided. DRK's lack of sustain and unconventional invuln put me off from enjoying it, so I stopped playing it. And from the looks of things with how WAR either claws back from a somewhat ok beginning each expansion, or just remains rather well the entire time like HW, I'm not sweating that much.

[Zairava]

I enjoy the thrill of surviving. If you don't like it then that sucks then, DRK is just for you then. Just like the many threads that want BLM to not be a turret with slow casts, I'm fine with it existing(even if it's getting more mobility than RDM anyway), but there's other classes available. However this thread asked for DRK stuff specifically, and so I provided. DRK's lack of sustain and unconventional invuln put me off from enjoying it, so I stopped playing it. And from the looks of things with how WAR either claws back from a somewhat ok beginning each expansion, or just remains rather well the entire time like HW, I'm not sweating that much.

I like needing to fight to survive, Warrior doesn't provide that due to how easy it is. If they keep the trend with WAR in 7.0 it'll just be leveled then probably benched and geared with my other tanks like it's been most of this expansion.

It's how it should be, not every job has to be for every person, not everyone has to enjoy every single job, not to mention that is an impossible task to meet. I enjoy complexity and others don't. That's fine. DRK slightly provides that in big pulls currently, so here I shout into the void in hopes they do something with the job in 7.0.

[Shurrikhan]

And again you're simply boiling it down to technicalities. Yes, you do 200 potency per target, but it doesn't change the effective damage output increasing the more targets you put up.

Except the coefficient is oceans apart. Imagine if Fell Cleave hit every enemy nearby for the same potency as it does to its current only target. Would you assume that is balanced?

No? Because it does almost 3x the damage of the AoE?

Then why would you assume that (getting n times your single-target [not your AoE] healing potency per target) is balanced for Bloodwhetting?

Yes, Bloodwhetting is not unique in scaling flatly per target, since Abyssal Drain does the same, but there's that difference again: Abyssal Drain totals 200 potency of healing per enemy, while Bloodwhetting totals to 1600 potency of healing per enemy. And Abyssal Drain is a 1-minute CD, while Bloodwhetting is just a 25-second CD.

200. Versus 1600. 60-second CD. Versus a 25s CD.

Now consider what Bloodwhetting would look like if its AoE scaling functioned more like attacks, wherein total potency dealt does not increase linearly because you have to sacrifice potency per target in order to scale further:

Rather than 1600|3200|4800|6400|8000 total healing over 1|2|3|4|5 targets, you'd instead be doing ~1600|2000|2400|2800|3200, resulting in a curve that can actually be simultaneously appropriate both for ST and AoE.

So was I, in fact my very first job was Marauder fancy that. Hard to tell with the way you're talking like a SHB player.

Besides being a pain in the ass in solo content again since it requires a partner

Nascent Flash did not require a partner for most of Shadowbringers.

Nascent Flash no longer being usable on self came only after they wasted the second button by making Nascent Flash identical to Raw Intuition / Bloodwhetting (instead of having a pure mitigation tool (Raw Intuition) usable on self and distinct and separate healing-from-damage-dealt tool that can be used on self or others).


...And why are you dismissing people for "talking like a ShB player" when they're noting things as far back as Stormblood, let alone while you can't remember the content of the previous expansion...?