Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons

[Zairava]

It still hits in an AoE which is what im referring to in that post specifically whenever Rithy wants to bring up; "warrior shouldn't get aoe sustain (400 heal per hit not per enemy)". If Warrior can't have AoE healing then might as well shift it since it's the same kind of healing, hit a button, heal from doing damage. It's not supposed to heal you all at once because of the status as a DPS, they can't even make Physick heal at a decent rate, and RDM's would be ok if it didn't have a slew of other issues that's for the DPS threads.

You'd find it more interesting that's for sure. It's whatever to me. Just having a button that lets you heal as well as mitigate and shield, or alternatively give a version to a friend while only healing yourself is fine enough. It works fine as is, so no real reason to change it. That'd already be an actual good use of time over shifting WAR who is doing right well for themselves.

Okay, I'm going to approach this at another angle.

It shouldn't be healing you to full as a tank effortlessly either. The power between Bloodwhetting and Bloodbath is totally incomparable if you're talking the use in aoe.

To test out how potent it actually is, I went in game and used both Bloodwhetting and Equilibrium multiple times.

At my item level (either 653 or 654), I have, rounded down, 114,000HP, and per weaponskill Bloodwhetting healed me for anywhere from ~8.8k-9.2k HP, and you should be getting 4 GCD's in, so now let's do the math.

Let's use the standard double pull in dungeons. Let's say you have 8 mobs on you. I'll use 9k as a medium then show the lowball 8.8k

• 9000*4=36,000 | 36,000*8 = 288,000 HP healed + 9,000eHP from the shield (totaling 297,000) + 10% flat mit for 8s
• 8.8k*4=35,200 | 35,200*8 = 281,000 HP healed + 8,800eHP from the shield (totaling 289,800) + 10% flat mit for 8s

Equilibrium is a flat 1,200 potency plus the HoT proved to be relative to the cure potency calculations from BW. Like the prior calcs I used rounded values.

• 27,000 + 22,500(HoT)=49,500 total

I could heal myself almost thrice over given that circumstance with Bloodwhetting. Even halving the amount of mobs still nets over your entire HP pool, this with a flat mit on top of everything else. Just the healing alone is almost 6 times higher than Equilibrium (5.818... using the 9,000 HP rounding), and halving the amount of mobs given the same 9k HP calc (144,000) is nearly three times more potent than Equilibrium (2.90...), and Bloodwhetting is on a 25s cooldown, Equilibrium on 60 seconds.

That is an absolutely ludicrous amount of healing that NO TANK should have readily available every 25s. The simple calcs I just listed don't include crit heals either. It's not "doing just well" or "doing just fine", you're basically immortal due to how fast it comes off cooldown and the sheer volume of self-healing from it. It ranges from one benediction to nearly four every 25 seconds. That people think this even remotely healthy balance on any tank with how completely mindless it is to perform is mind-boggling.

[MikoRemi]

Snip

Once again, tanks who primarily take the damage, melees who don't normally take the damage. Both have options, but which one fits the role best for the respective potencies? I'm more in line with having both options available in particular so that both jobs feel happy, but Bloodwhetting being stronger is obvious. The fact of the matter though, is that Bloodbath is superior to Second wind as Bloodwhetting is to Equilibrium, which you thankfully math out for the next bit.

I appreciate the math at least and won't argue that in an AoE scenario, Bloodwhetting is quite a powerful move. The comparison with Equilibrium however needs a little re-examination...that skill is simply an enhanced Second Wind really, an emergency heal that also heals a little over as a precaution. Primary healing is usually through Bloodwhetting which in AoE is of course strong, but in regards to single target, it becomes more of a nice tool but when faced with bigger damage it's usually best to be used for the mitigation and shielding. It's mostly important considering there's a 50/50 involved with targets doing physical damage in general or not, so you want to use Vengeance as much as possible to get that damage and not so much mitigation. It leaves you with only a few options left, and having one available more readily helps mitigate the loss of Vengeance as a defense tool.

It absolutely is a nice tool, means if the healer dies I don't have to worry so much. Very clutch in other environments as well which has to be considered since as I mention to others, you can't separate skills other than by PVE or PVP. If the healing was lowered, it would suffer in single target, but as it is now it's strong in AoE as a result. It's just one of those things that gets better the more enemies you add, like with AoE in general where the general potency increases with more mobs.

IMO, unless they're going to have skills changed between dungeons/trials/raids/etc, it's an uncomfortable idea to damn a skill solely because of its strength in lower tier content. Yes yes, this is a dungeon thread, but that's a point that cannot be denied unfortunately. If nothing else, having come from an environment where the nerf bat can get ridiculous, I'd rather keep it sparce than drag down a pretty fun class. I'd also imagine honestly that if it really was a problem, it would've been addressed as fast as something like SCH's Expedience, or the silly gap when SMN was the highest DPS of any job including BLM and SAM by a fair bit. At this point though, WAR's healing is a matter of preference I suppose.

[Zairava]

The fact of the matter though, is that Bloodbath is superior to Second wind as Bloodwhetting is to Equilibrium, which you thankfully math out for the next bit.

I appreciate the math at least and won't argue that in an AoE scenario, Bloodwhetting is quite a powerful move. The comparison with Equilibrium however needs a little re-examination...that skill is simply an enhanced Second Wind really, an emergency heal that also heals a little over as a precaution. Primary healing is usually through Bloodwhetting which in AoE is of course strong, but in regards to single target, it becomes more of a nice tool but when faced with bigger damage it's usually best to be used for the mitigation and shielding. It's mostly important considering there's a 50/50 involved with targets doing physical damage in general or not, so you want to use Vengeance as much as possible to get that damage and not so much mitigation. It leaves you with only a few options left, and having one available more readily helps mitigate the loss of Vengeance as a defense tool.

I..what? Equilibrium is literally part of your sustain kit, you'd might as well say Thrill of Battle is an emergency heal+HP increase. You..are literally invalidating both Equilibrium and Thrill of Battle, parts of your own toolkit, in dungeon content with Bloodwhetting unless your healer ate dirt and you don't have either a SMN or RDM to raise them. Equilibrium should be seen as something important and useful in all content, not the neglected child of the family.

Even if you take the comparison to Equilibrium out of the equation, my point with it ranging from one to four benedictions in dungeons still stands. Benediction is a single full heal every 180 seconds, you have Bloodwhetting every 25.

If the healing was lowered, it would suffer in single target, but as it is now it's strong in AoE as a result. It's just one of those things that gets better the more enemies you add, like with AoE in general where the general potency increases with more mobs.

IMO, unless they're going to have skills changed between dungeons/trials/raids/etc, it's an uncomfortable idea to damn a skill solely because of its strength in lower tier content. I'd also imagine honestly that if it really was a problem, it would've been addressed as fast as something like SCH's Expedience, or the silly gap when SMN was the highest DPS of any job including BLM and SAM by a fair bit. At this point though, WAR's healing is a matter of preference I suppose.

I haven't seen anyone actually ask for the healing potency to be nerfed, unless you account for suggestions to return it to a portion of damage dealt. To add to this, there is no reason to separate them, the Nascent Flash being split in to two abilities is already unnecessary, just like shoha II's existence, just upgrade Shoha.

Expedience was seen as a problem because it was 20 seconds of sprint party-wide, which is completely absurd in high-end content. Bloodwhetting is balanced in single target, so that wasn't seen as an issue. You would still perform more than fine in dungeons if Bloodwhetting was per use, or a portion of damage dealt like its Shadowbringers counterpart (which I really enjoyed, actually. It made using it for standard aoe or during IR and/or with Nascent Chaos an actual decision to make).

[MikoRemi]

Snip

Not really, you're trying to compare a tool that scales better in AoE to something that only works on yourself. It's the same reason why Bloodbath works even better in AoE vs single target, but still stronger than Second Wind, Bloodwhetting works the same way vs Equilibrium. It's not complicated, they're all useful, but AoE scaling is AoE scaling, same reason why in practice AoE attacks do absurd damage the more numbers you add into the pile because you hit more enemies at once, that's all there is to it. Also Thrill can act as an emergency heal of sorts since it does in fact increase the healing from Equilibrium and I believe the Shake it Off regen, but not from Bloodwhetting. It's also great for times when Max HP is reduced, or something like eating Homing Lasers in UWU where without a full set of cooldowns or an invuln, it hits like a truck.

Indeed with higher numbers it can certainly add up to that, I won't argue the math at the least. That's just how it goes when you add more enemies to the pile though. It certainly won't benediction on single targets, and that's the thing to consider.

Rithy tends to want Bloodwhetting to only work on one enemy at a time which is essentially a large nerf even if not to the potency itself. I can't remember every single thread ever made on this site of course, but the vocal minority here also want Warrior's healing removed completely. It's a sad time. In regards to Shoha II's existence, that's more fine since Samurai actually has a button bloating issue, with WAR especially it doesn't really have too many buttons outside of the 1-2-3, 1-2-4 and 1-2 AoE. A lot of those could just be fixed with 1-1-1, 1-1-2 sorts as a toggleable option of course, if only to quell the people who would find that system braindead...even if there's almost no difference between the two in terms of skill.

Balanced in single target indeed, and just happens to scale a lot better when you add more enemies. It really would depend but honestly as it is, it's not one of the major things that need changing nor is it as insanely broken as people say, or else it would've gotten slapped quite quickly. Nowadays I keep it up for either AoE heals, some mitigation and shielding for bigger hits, or slap it on someone who needs it for whatever reason. It's already quite fine.

Part 1 of 2.

[MikoRemi]

Key thing is that every tank tends to work fine for everything after dungeons, so then the question becomes why. Classes like DRK don't have much sustain and GNB is doing a little fine but could use a tiny bit more. Nobody is worried about PLD or WAR in that regard, and going back to the start of the thread, it's mainly poking at DRK. Just adding Blood Price and making Abyssal Drain use MP again would be great fixes. Rather than tear down tanks that can do well, bring up the tanks that have it harder. It wouldn't be all that crazy vs single targets once again, so it wouldn't be so bad. Healer's at that point just need a more engaging rotation but that's a discussion for Healer threads.

Part 2 of 2.

[Shurrikhan]

Key thing is that every tank tends to work fine for everything after dungeons, so then the question becomes why.

There is no remaining question of why except to those with their ears plugged.

That Warrior's sustain is merely "weirdly/worryingly high" outside of dungeons but "stupidly/brokenly high" in dungeons comes down simply to the target-count-scaling of EW Bloodwhetting and Nascent Flash's means of sustain.

This has been explained to you ad nauseum by now.

Bloodbath does not heal for its single-target value per enemy struck. It simply heals based on whatever damage you can put out. Which is exactly how Nascent Flash used to work, making it interact far better with the rest of Warrior's kit.

EW Bloodwhetting and Nascent, on the other hand, heal for the same amounts they would in single-target, but per target. Which is not how AoE works in any other area of the game.

That question has long, long, long since been answered. You just have to read any of the many hundred explanations of how and why that have been made since EW launch.

[MikoRemi]

Snip

Oh come now, just because you're frustrated doesn't mean you have to give up so.

It's decent outside of dungeons and very fine in dungeons, nice correction. And thank you for doing basic math, that's how basic AoE's work when they scale more based on even more enemies. I have to be the one explaining that one though apparently.

And? Hit multiple enemies, get more healing. The technicals don't really matter when what comes out is more based on more enemies.

Mainly because there's a cure potency attached along with weaponskill damage, which is quite handy for a tank who has to take damage. Bloodsucker has an innate version of that in Bozja. Also not every AoE has a falloff, this would include this rather neat healing one.

What question? That there's a vocal minority whining about something that's doing pretty good? I mean it's hardly surprising, more surprising is coming from someone that hates to read other threads selectively and yet you ask me to do so when I in fact remember related threads when you love to ask "How is this relevant to what you're quoting, though". No the real question that will come up over and over, is why DRK is behind in the sustain game. It's why well get more threads of DRK needing help, patches to other tanks being a middle finger to DRK, and why the start of this thread began with DRK.

WAR is a great tank, so is PLD, GNB is a bit finnicky but it's still pretty great. DRK is getting closer and closer, but it just needs a little more. However if all people wanna do is try to tear down a nice tank instead of bringing up the one that consistently gets brought up often, then it'll be little wonder that DRK doesn't get much. Enjoy I suppose.

[Zairava]

Indeed with higher numbers it can certainly add up to that, I won't argue the math at the least. That's just how it goes when you add more enemies to the pile though. It certainly won't benediction on single targets, and that's the thing to consider.

Rithy tends to want Bloodwhetting to only work on one enemy at a time which is essentially a large nerf even if not to the potency itself. I can't remember every single thread ever made on this site of course, but the vocal minority here also want Warrior's healing removed completely. It's a sad time. In regards to Shoha II's existence, that's more fine since Samurai actually has a button bloating issue, with WAR especially it doesn't really have too many buttons outside of the 1-2-3, 1-2-4 and 1-2 AoE. A lot of those could just be fixed with 1-1-1, 1-1-2 sorts as a toggleable option of course, if only to quell the people who would find that system braindead...even if there's almost no difference between the two in terms of skill.

Balanced in single target indeed, and just happens to scale a lot better when you add more enemies. It really would depend but honestly as it is, it's not one of the major things that need changing nor is it as insanely broken as people say, or else it would've gotten slapped quite quickly. Nowadays I keep it up for either AoE heals, some mitigation and shielding for bigger hits, or slap it on someone who needs it for whatever reason. It's already quite fine.

Yes, and it being a single target non-benediction is how it should function if they aren't going to revert it to it's Shadowbringers counterpart.

"A lot better" and "just fine" is such a horrific understatement. You are defending what is essentially an invulnerability skill in dungeons that you use every 25 seconds that lasts 8 seconds. So long as you press that one single button and press aoe skills you will. not. die., and more often than not be at full HP, for 8 seconds.

The only healing I've seen people wanted removed completely, including myself, is the party healing on Shake it Off.

What question? That there's a vocal minority whining about something that's doing pretty good? I mean it's hardly surprising, more surprising is coming from someone that hates to read other threads selectively and yet you ask me to do so when I in fact remember related threads when you love to ask "How is this relevant to what you're quoting, though". No the real question that will come up over and over, is why DRK is behind in the sustain game. It's why well get more threads of DRK needing help, patches to other tanks being a middle finger to DRK, and why the start of this thread began with DRK.

WAR is a great tank, so is PLD, GNB is a bit finnicky but it's still pretty great. DRK is getting closer and closer, but it just needs a little more. However if all people wanna do is try to tear down a nice tank instead of bringing up the one that consistently gets brought up often, then it'll be little wonder that DRK doesn't get much. Enjoy I suppose.

Because DRK, for the quintillionth time, does. not. need it. It is not behind on sustain because it does not need it. Nor does Gunbreaker. The people that do complain about it have a genuine skill issue or are complaining simply because they have to put forth a modicum of extra effort or healers complaining that they need to *checks notes* do their job and heal.

The absolute last thing DRK needs is to become even more foolproofed when it's already boring as sin in every moment except when you're bursting.

[Shurrikhan]

It's decent outside of dungeons and very fine in dungeons, nice correction. And thank you for doing basic math, that's how basic AoE's work when they scale more based on even more enemies.

Ffs.

Look at your ST ppgcd.
Now look at your AoE ppgcd.

Hell, just take any given spender with both choices, such as Fell Cleave (520 potency) and Decimate (200n potency).

Do they both do the same potency per target?

If not, you're again missing/avoiding the point.

What question? That there's a vocal minority whining about something that's doing pretty good?

There's people who care more about gameplay that merely being FotM complaining about their kit being shallowed out so that their job can be optimized by 5-year-olds.

And the "question" was literally yours: Why is tank sustain roughly balance in all raids, trials, etc. (they're not, but we'll run with your false premise, I guess), but not in dungeons.

To which the answer is, again, literally just the way EW Nascent/Bloodwhetting's power scales, which is not equivalent to general AoE power scaling, because every other AoE in the game deals less per-target than their ST alternatives while EW Nascent/Bloodwhetting does not.

if all people wanna do is try to tear down a nice tank

Tfw asking for a mere return to some actual kit interaction and depth more than microns deep is trying "to tear down" a tank...