Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons

[Shurrikhan]

That's your opinion though. Having the sustain be useful in dungeons and raid settings whether it's from the AOE sustain or the barrier/mitigation potential, it's quite nice to have.

How is this relevant to what you're quoting, though? No one said that no tank should have AoE-scaled sustain. The problem is the procedure of that AoE sustain providing so great a degree of output that it devalues one's other tools.

TBN is still useful, largely necessary, and plenty fun in dungeons. Heart of Corundom is still useful, largely necessary, and plenty fun in dungeons. Holy Sheltron is still useful, largely necessary, and plenty fun in dungeons.. They don't need to be as busted as Bloodwhetting's output in AoE to be useful, largely necessary, and plenty fun in dungeons.

It'd be a real shame to have it be touched, and there's far bigger things to touch really.

Cue the whataboutisms. Let's hope they're at least relevant...

Want to teach players not to AFK, there's been doom lately making the rounds since Fell Court of Troia since we moved away from the Bardam's Mettle puzzle boss style.

A Doom that cannot be cleansed except through Esuna from failing to dodge provides no more tank gameplay that --you guessed it-- the Bardam's Mettle puzzle boss.

Want to also not AFK, try content that's Extreme or higher and watch things get hellish if you do such a thing.

Which is, as literally as can be... not a dungeon. The complaints are about dungeon gameplay. The thread is about dungeon gameplay. Dungeons. Not Extremes or higher. Dungeons.

I can see where you're coming from but there's other ways to deal with it than harming a piece of kit.

It is not "harming" a piece of kit to ask to return it to being interactive with the rest of the kit (such as by reverting it to its Shadowbringer's functionality, complete with the extra options and agency that entailed).

[MikoRemi]

snip.

Read what Rithy is saying, they're the one pointing out that WAR shouldn't have AoE healing, specifically with; "warrior shouldn't get aoe sustain (400 heal per hit not per enemy)". All because; "AOE sustain on warrior just isn't fun IMO". Hence why I said that's their opinion.

Nobody is saying TBN isn't useful, but the shield does much less to protect from a mob attack over sustain, shields are strongest with single deadly blows which aren't common in dungeons to say the least. Heart of Corundum is fine, the continuation combo could give some shielding itself so somewhere in that 25 second window you don't have to slam a mit or lose DPS, and PLD doesn't need it because they got Clemency/Holy Spirit/Holy Circle just to name a few other healing alternatives. I personally love WAR's healing and then PLD, while GNB doesn't quite heal enough to be comfortable but Superbolide can make up for it.

Is it really a whataboutism? I know you don't love to read other posts but we already have things like Dark Mind to touch let alone other things.

Welp, everyone loves to say Bloodwhetting solves everything including you, so that doesn't really answer much other than just trying to dodge with "no more tank gameplay".

And again, can skills be separated from dungeon or raid? Don't think so. Not to mention Lyth already brought up 8 man WAR solo runs which if I'm not mistaken, isn't a dungeon. But hey, crucify me specifically~.

Or we can just have a single target version that's particularly strong for what it should be, or choosing to use the partner version that's weaker but supportive, an element of choice if you will. No real need to revert something that's fine. A good revert was giving Energy Drain back to SCH back in SHB because removing that was a complete mistake.

[Oizen]

Essentially agree other than the non AOE sustain on WAR. Might as well make Melee Bloodbath only heal per GCD, that'll make it real sad.

Rest though is quite fine.

This is a bit disingenuous isnt it? Bloodbath heals based on damage done. As a melee, if you bloodbath a crowd of mobs, you're not really transformed into that much of a tank. The healing is very gradual, and beyond that it has a 20s cd because its not supposed to heal you all to max at once.

WAR might actually be more interesting if its healing was locked away behind its infuriate skills specifically while just spamming basic combos barely healed you at all. Would give the job way more decision making on where and when to use your fattest attacks if your healing scaled up and down with damage.

[MikoRemi]

This is a bit disingenuous isnt it? Bloodbath heals based on damage done. As a melee, if you bloodbath a crowd of mobs, you're not really transformed into that much of a tank. The healing is very gradual, and beyond that it has a 20s cd because its not supposed to heal you all to max at once.

WAR might actually be more interesting if its healing was locked away behind its infuriate skills specifically while just spamming basic combos barely healed you at all. Would give the job way more decision making on where and when to use your fattest attacks if your healing scaled up and down with damage.

It still hits in an AoE which is what im referring to in that post specifically whenever Rithy wants to bring up; "warrior shouldn't get aoe sustain (400 heal per hit not per enemy)". If Warrior can't have AoE healing then might as well shift it since it's the same kind of healing, hit a button, heal from doing damage. It's not supposed to heal you all at once because of the status as a DPS, they can't even make Physick heal at a decent rate, and RDM's would be ok if it didn't have a slew of other issues that's for the DPS threads.

You'd find it more interesting that's for sure. It's whatever to me. Just having a button that lets you heal as well as mitigate and shield, or alternatively give a version to a friend while only healing yourself is fine enough. It works fine as is, so no real reason to change it. You know what would actually be interesting though? Giving DRK Blood Price back and let it heal back 50% of damage taken so it'll die slower. Also give Dark Mind that 10% phys reduction or just a flat 20% all across, and let Dark Missionary come earlier than 70. That'd already be an actual good use of time over shifting WAR who is doing right well for themselves.

[Zairava]

It still hits in an AoE which is what im referring to in that post specifically whenever Rithy wants to bring up; "warrior shouldn't get aoe sustain (400 heal per hit not per enemy)". If Warrior can't have AoE healing then might as well shift it since it's the same kind of healing, hit a button, heal from doing damage. It's not supposed to heal you all at once because of the status as a DPS, they can't even make Physick heal at a decent rate, and RDM's would be ok if it didn't have a slew of other issues that's for the DPS threads.

You'd find it more interesting that's for sure. It's whatever to me. Just having a button that lets you heal as well as mitigate and shield, or alternatively give a version to a friend while only healing yourself is fine enough. It works fine as is, so no real reason to change it. That'd already be an actual good use of time over shifting WAR who is doing right well for themselves.

Okay, I'm going to approach this at another angle.

It shouldn't be healing you to full as a tank effortlessly either. The power between Bloodwhetting and Bloodbath is totally incomparable if you're talking the use in aoe.

To test out how potent it actually is, I went in game and used both Bloodwhetting and Equilibrium multiple times.

At my item level (either 653 or 654), I have, rounded down, 114,000HP, and per weaponskill Bloodwhetting healed me for anywhere from ~8.8k-9.2k HP, and you should be getting 4 GCD's in, so now let's do the math.

Let's use the standard double pull in dungeons. Let's say you have 8 mobs on you. I'll use 9k as a medium then show the lowball 8.8k

• 9000*4=36,000 | 36,000*8 = 288,000 HP healed + 9,000eHP from the shield (totaling 297,000) + 10% flat mit for 8s
• 8.8k*4=35,200 | 35,200*8 = 281,000 HP healed + 8,800eHP from the shield (totaling 289,800) + 10% flat mit for 8s

Equilibrium is a flat 1,200 potency plus the HoT proved to be relative to the cure potency calculations from BW. Like the prior calcs I used rounded values.

• 27,000 + 22,500(HoT)=49,500 total

I could heal myself almost thrice over given that circumstance with Bloodwhetting. Even halving the amount of mobs still nets over your entire HP pool, this with a flat mit on top of everything else. Just the healing alone is almost 6 times higher than Equilibrium (5.818... using the 9,000 HP rounding), and halving the amount of mobs given the same 9k HP calc (144,000) is nearly three times more potent than Equilibrium (2.90...), and Bloodwhetting is on a 25s cooldown, Equilibrium on 60 seconds.

That is an absolutely ludicrous amount of healing that NO TANK should have readily available every 25s. The simple calcs I just listed don't include crit heals either. It's not "doing just well" or "doing just fine", you're basically immortal due to how fast it comes off cooldown and the sheer volume of self-healing from it. It ranges from one benediction to nearly four every 25 seconds. That people think this even remotely healthy balance on any tank with how completely mindless it is to perform is mind-boggling.

[MikoRemi]

Snip

Once again, tanks who primarily take the damage, melees who don't normally take the damage. Both have options, but which one fits the role best for the respective potencies? I'm more in line with having both options available in particular so that both jobs feel happy, but Bloodwhetting being stronger is obvious. The fact of the matter though, is that Bloodbath is superior to Second wind as Bloodwhetting is to Equilibrium, which you thankfully math out for the next bit.

I appreciate the math at least and won't argue that in an AoE scenario, Bloodwhetting is quite a powerful move. The comparison with Equilibrium however needs a little re-examination...that skill is simply an enhanced Second Wind really, an emergency heal that also heals a little over as a precaution. Primary healing is usually through Bloodwhetting which in AoE is of course strong, but in regards to single target, it becomes more of a nice tool but when faced with bigger damage it's usually best to be used for the mitigation and shielding. It's mostly important considering there's a 50/50 involved with targets doing physical damage in general or not, so you want to use Vengeance as much as possible to get that damage and not so much mitigation. It leaves you with only a few options left, and having one available more readily helps mitigate the loss of Vengeance as a defense tool.

It absolutely is a nice tool, means if the healer dies I don't have to worry so much. Very clutch in other environments as well which has to be considered since as I mention to others, you can't separate skills other than by PVE or PVP. If the healing was lowered, it would suffer in single target, but as it is now it's strong in AoE as a result. It's just one of those things that gets better the more enemies you add, like with AoE in general where the general potency increases with more mobs.

IMO, unless they're going to have skills changed between dungeons/trials/raids/etc, it's an uncomfortable idea to damn a skill solely because of its strength in lower tier content. Yes yes, this is a dungeon thread, but that's a point that cannot be denied unfortunately. If nothing else, having come from an environment where the nerf bat can get ridiculous, I'd rather keep it sparce than drag down a pretty fun class. I'd also imagine honestly that if it really was a problem, it would've been addressed as fast as something like SCH's Expedience, or the silly gap when SMN was the highest DPS of any job including BLM and SAM by a fair bit. At this point though, WAR's healing is a matter of preference I suppose.

[Zairava]

The fact of the matter though, is that Bloodbath is superior to Second wind as Bloodwhetting is to Equilibrium, which you thankfully math out for the next bit.

I appreciate the math at least and won't argue that in an AoE scenario, Bloodwhetting is quite a powerful move. The comparison with Equilibrium however needs a little re-examination...that skill is simply an enhanced Second Wind really, an emergency heal that also heals a little over as a precaution. Primary healing is usually through Bloodwhetting which in AoE is of course strong, but in regards to single target, it becomes more of a nice tool but when faced with bigger damage it's usually best to be used for the mitigation and shielding. It's mostly important considering there's a 50/50 involved with targets doing physical damage in general or not, so you want to use Vengeance as much as possible to get that damage and not so much mitigation. It leaves you with only a few options left, and having one available more readily helps mitigate the loss of Vengeance as a defense tool.

I..what? Equilibrium is literally part of your sustain kit, you'd might as well say Thrill of Battle is an emergency heal+HP increase. You..are literally invalidating both Equilibrium and Thrill of Battle, parts of your own toolkit, in dungeon content with Bloodwhetting unless your healer ate dirt and you don't have either a SMN or RDM to raise them. Equilibrium should be seen as something important and useful in all content, not the neglected child of the family.

Even if you take the comparison to Equilibrium out of the equation, my point with it ranging from one to four benedictions in dungeons still stands. Benediction is a single full heal every 180 seconds, you have Bloodwhetting every 25.

If the healing was lowered, it would suffer in single target, but as it is now it's strong in AoE as a result. It's just one of those things that gets better the more enemies you add, like with AoE in general where the general potency increases with more mobs.

IMO, unless they're going to have skills changed between dungeons/trials/raids/etc, it's an uncomfortable idea to damn a skill solely because of its strength in lower tier content. I'd also imagine honestly that if it really was a problem, it would've been addressed as fast as something like SCH's Expedience, or the silly gap when SMN was the highest DPS of any job including BLM and SAM by a fair bit. At this point though, WAR's healing is a matter of preference I suppose.

I haven't seen anyone actually ask for the healing potency to be nerfed, unless you account for suggestions to return it to a portion of damage dealt. To add to this, there is no reason to separate them, the Nascent Flash being split in to two abilities is already unnecessary, just like shoha II's existence, just upgrade Shoha.

Expedience was seen as a problem because it was 20 seconds of sprint party-wide, which is completely absurd in high-end content. Bloodwhetting is balanced in single target, so that wasn't seen as an issue. You would still perform more than fine in dungeons if Bloodwhetting was per use, or a portion of damage dealt like its Shadowbringers counterpart (which I really enjoyed, actually. It made using it for standard aoe or during IR and/or with Nascent Chaos an actual decision to make).

[Zairava]

You know what would actually be interesting though? Giving DRK Blood Price back and let it heal back 50% of damage taken so it'll die slower. Also give Dark Mind that 10% phys reduction or just a flat 20% all across, and let Dark Missionary come earlier than 70.

It would be more interesting to have Abyssal Drain back on the GCD with an MP cost and just return Blood Price as it was, even if it's on a longer cooldown.

[MikoRemi]

It would be more interesting to have Abyssal Drain back on the GCD with an MP cost and just return Blood Price as it was, even if it's on a longer cooldown.

This would at least be a positive. Nothing wrong with this actually, even if Blood Price giving a little healing wouldn't be that terrible of a boost personally.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]WAR might actually be more interesting if its healing was locked away behind its infuriate skills specifically while just spamming basic combos barely healed you at all. Would give the job way more decision making on where and when to use your fattest attacks if your healing scaled up and down with damage.

This over here, made ShB Nascent Flash felt satisfying to use. I remember back then there was no way you could sustain yourself with Nascent Flash > regular AoE combo in a wall pull. WARs in those time simply don't do enough dps to generate enough sustenance that way. Paired with Chaotic Cyclone & using it on Decimates however, it became a different story. It makes decision making actually a thing even in the most braindead content in the game.

Today's RI/BW made that decision making less of a factor while also eating away what's little left on the green role's job within dungeon. If this is a solo game I wouldn't care, but here we are lol.