Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons

[Supersnow845]

By page 15 of this thread mikoremi is going to be arguing WAR mains alone fixed 1.0 based on the inflation of claims of apparently what WAR mains are doing for the game

[MikoRemi]

snip

That's Paladin's thing. They already have Holy Sheltron at this point and if they're desperate for a super heal, Clemency is an option. Although with how much longer their Requiscat combo is, it makes up for it fine. Also shields are handy when you crunch down a bit. That's just sticking with those skills in particular of course.

No need to bring in hyperbole then. It's not a strawman when you say it yourself. Just say it's a good button like normal folk. It's not hard.

Again, tanks are easy to play in general and difficulty is subjective. If you don't like it that's fine, it's when you want to crunch it down is when there's an issue.

Of course it's not specifically, but come now, the timing is just too funny not to bring up and with how the wording is. I wouldn't have been surprised if they changed it but let it cleanse early still to screw DRK's over, but they had the foresight to make sure that wouldn't happen. That's good for the record, but I wasn't expecting them to do that so early~.

I mean personal preference aside, I already had to accept things like party responsibility with skills like Erase/Mana Shift/Diversion/etc. are gone and wasn't as amazing as I loved to believe years ago. Stance dancing was whatever because all WAR was already was just Defiance>Unchained>Tomahawk>Equilibrium>Deliverance>go ham fam. Stacks is always just nicer in regards to ping and not needing to rely on Skill Speed to be stable, and having an actual good Shake it Off is nice, people hated when it was just a group Esuna. In theory it's neat to look backwards but unfortunately people are too lazy to know what Goad or Diversion are, so it had to change. It's much less frustrating now to DF, doubly so when WAR makes it so I don't have to worry about the horrors of PUG's.

Part 1 of 2.

[MikoRemi]

I bring up SMN primarily because of how much of a jump it was especially in regards to what it brought. WAR now is like...decent DPS but not even the max DPS compared to likes of DRK? Again that's fine, but people make it sound like it's 5% ahead of every tank or something, it gets ridiculous. Personal preference if other tanks don't need the healing, DRK of course has really good shields EVENTUALLY that make it harder to take damage...but then people still gasp in horror when they see a DRK in dungeons, Dark Mind is still a mess, Dark Missionary comes ungodly late for absolutely no reason, and so on. I mean I'd take Abyssal Drain being on MP cost if I wanted to be lazy, but Blood Price becoming a beast by healing back 50% of the damage and some MP for a sweet boost? Man that sounds really fun. GNB could still gain some shields during its burst window as well, also make No Mercy longer so everything can fit cleanly, but that means not burdening the healer too much by going combo ham and risking DPS within the small weave windows. Aurora and Heart of Corundum only do so much even if they're...fine.

Of course if you don't want that well, enjoy more threads of DRK needing help, because they'll just keep coming. I'd personally like if they didn't have Inner Release 0.5 or Fell Cleave 0.5, not even WAR's asked for that. That doesn't make healing a taboo though a WAR only sin(you mention copy paste, not me~). For this thread though, I'll just stick with the above plans if they wanted to put in some good stuff for the two tanks.

Part 2 of 2.

[MikoRemi]

By page 15 of this thread mikoremi is going to be arguing WAR mains alone fixed 1.0 based on the inflation of claims of apparently what WAR mains are doing for the game

Aww I was starting to miss you when you bowed out earlier, welcome back.

1.0 is a whole other beast that hardly any a soul knows, nor wants to know. That has so little relation that it died even. Also gosh darn, if Living Dead is equivalent to an entire other game with that sort of comparison, I don't know what inflation is anymore. Totally nothing like insinuating WAR causing such an imbalance that it somehow imbalances every single piece of content more than any other job in history!

It's unfortunate that the vocal minority won't get it but I've seen some more sensible posts floating around that give some hope. Not like nerfs tend to come in such a fashion from the history so I'm not really sweating, I just want DRK and GNB to wander into Dawntrail with a little more pep in their step. If people would rather try to chain down WAR though, go at it I suppose. I still need to complete Hades, so I'll thank you for the reminder to not waste too much time on such a little thing~.

[Zairava]

I bring up SMN primarily because of how much of a jump it was especially in regards to what it brought. WAR now is like...decent DPS but not even the max DPS compared to likes of DRK? Again that's fine, but people make it sound like it's 5% ahead of every tank or something, it gets ridiculous.

I don't care what damage each tank is doing. I want DRK have its own combat identity again.

Personal preference if other tanks don't need the healing, DRK of course has really good shields EVENTUALLY that make it harder to take damage...but then people still gasp in horror when they see a DRK in dungeons

All this ultimately means is that the healer has to heal more, which is... oh no? I guess? They are the ones who signed up to heal.

Dark Mind is still a mess, Dark Missionary comes ungodly late for absolutely no reason, and so on. I mean I'd take Abyssal Drain being on MP cost if I wanted to be lazy, but Blood Price becoming a beast by healing back 50% of the damage and some MP for a sweet boost? Man that sounds really fun.

• Dark mind just needs 10% mit tacked on to it
• Agree on Dark Missionary
• Why not both for Abyssal Drain and Blood Price? I would rather just let Blood Price give MP and Blood Gauge like it did in Stormblood and let Abyssal Drain do the sustaining, though.

GNB could still gain some shields during its burst window as well, also make No Mercy longer so everything can fit cleanly, but that means not burdening the healer too much by going combo ham and risking DPS within the small weave windows. Aurora and Heart of Corundum only do so much even if they're...fine.

GNB honestly doesn't need more healing or mits, it's the most well rounded tank between both sustain and defence currently.

Of course if you don't want that well, enjoy more threads of DRK needing help, because they'll just keep coming. I'd personally like if they didn't have Inner Release 0.5 or Fell Cleave 0.5, not even WAR's asked for that. That doesn't make healing a taboo though a WAR only sin(you mention copy paste, not me~). For this thread though, I'll just stick with the above plans if they wanted to put in some good stuff for the two tanks.

People complaining about DRK needing help is literally a skill issue, especially after Living Dead got adjusted. Not going to sugarcoat it.

The literal only things separating DRK from Warrior right now is DRK's defensive kit and the fact its burst is busier. DRK has even less going on in burst downtime then WAR somehow, ironically.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]I would still put the healer issues into the healer thread really, that's a whole other can of worms not for this thread. Here it's about tank mitigation overall, and yeah there's some tanks that have good mits, some that clearly don't.[...]

I'm only bringing up WAR and healing talks briefly because that's exactly the OP wants to see happening to DRK.

[...]I shouldn’t have to rely on gear or hope my healer is good at the game to be able to clear a dungeon on a tank.

I'm not going to sugarcoat it: that literally screams "I want to unga bunga in dungeon oh so who cares about the enjoyment of that one role which DF forces upon us to have in order to even start the duty!" --- at which point, why are we catering to the folks who refuses to budge in a group content? Let them stay suck, leave duty, vote dismiss, or improve.

This reminds me a of post from another forum dweller (same sentiment, but this is going a little bit of tangent here so I'll just /HB it):

Support classes in general feel like garbage in this game but BRD probably feels the worst because not only does it suffer from the problems of every other support class, but it also had a fun dps setup that got completely gutted for no discernible reason.

In other multiplayer games where party synergy actually exists, playing a support class feels good. These games are getting rarer and rarer, and it's definitely not a thing in 14. The only times a party syncs up in 14 is to hit their buff button on the 120s mark. Things like MP management basically do not exist unless you consider pressing lucid dreaming off cd for like 3 jobs "management" in which case lmao. Even if bard got an MP regen song, it would not affect like 90% of jobs in this game because most jobs don't use mana for anything. Bard's current songs affect things like crit chance and direct hit, basically invisible number stuff that you can't actually feel when you're partied up with a bard player. In essence, this means if a bard parties you, you might not even notice you're being buffed. This is incredibly shitty from just a "how does it feel to play this support class" angle. Compare this to other MMOs with actual support/party synergy elements. A support class might actually boost your attack speed so that you can accomplish more during your burst. This changes the entire feel of your class and makes you keenly aware of the fact that you're being supported. CBU3 lost track of this and doesn't want us to actually rely on our party members at all, so now all the support jobs just feel hella boring. But on top of this, BRD's DoTs actually felt meaningful in shb because they fed into your ability to take advantage of your songs. Now though, the DoTs don't do anything. Why? Was someone out there forgetting to just press Iron Jaws? So now we all get to pay for it? Who asked for this change? It makes aoe in dungeons slower and it makes the DoTs themselves completely meaningless; just remove them entirely if you're gonna cut out their purpose.

I seriously can't wrap my head around how bad support classes feel in this game sometimes. In the MMO I'm playing right now, the main support class boosts your attack speed, boosts your defense, boosts your accuracy, and boosts your attack power all while also debuffing other enemies. For people on the receiving end of these buffs, this has the effect of "I can't kill this monster by myself, but if I party up with [support class] I'll be faster, be able to hit the monster I want to kill for more damage, and not get immediately killed if I'm hit in turn." See how there's a noticeable difference from support buffs in a game where party synergy is a thing? See how that difference isn't only noticeable if you're eyeing a dps meter? For this to happen in 14, they'd need to basically roll back the game 3 expansions and suddenly make people dependent on each other again via things like MP/TP management. Players would riot and quit in droves because everyone who preferred that system probably quit ages ago and have been replaced by people who just want to do their 123 and not care about the rest of their group -- which is a fair thing to want, since most people you'll meet in this game suck at it.

[HyonaCookie]

I'm not going to sugarcoat it: that literally screams "I want to unga bunga in dungeon oh so who cares about the enjoyment of that one role which DF forces upon us to have in order to even start the duty!" --- at which point, why are we catering to the folks who refuses to budge in a group content? Let them stay suck, leave duty, vote dismiss, or improve.

I have seen healers say they'd rather be in a party with a WAR cos then they don't have to heal and can just DPS without care. I have seen them complain whenever they get a DRK in the party and even say they'd rather take a 30min penalty than deal with DRK. I have even seen on other sites such as Twitter and Reddit people saying DRK should be banned from being used in dungeons and we should harrass people out of playing the job. WHy should I care about the feelings of healers when they don't care about mine?

[Rithy255]

I have seen healers say they'd rather be in a party with a WAR cos then they don't have to heal and can just DPS without care. I have seen them complain whenever they get a DRK in the party and even say they'd rather take a 30min penalty than deal with DRK. I have even seen on other sites such as Twitter and Reddit people saying DRK should be banned from being used in dungeons and we should harrass people out of playing the job. WHy should I care about the feelings of healers when they don't care about mine?

Yeah that's because people don't even know how to heal anymore in dungeon content with the consequences of how warrior is currently designed for dungeons (pld to a certain extent) and how dungeons have become so easy, I really don't get why people would be upset with a decent DRK (outside zot or dead ends, which yeah I can understand might be frustrating if the drk isn't really good, but honestly just be patient at worst you'll wipe once or twice lol),

The alternative to nerfing warrior in dungeon content is buffing every other tank, which just feels kind of bad to me I dislike how warrior feels as a tank, I don't like the "press one button and heal max" in aoe, I think we need to stop babying healers and a step towards that is making pulls more rougher in general and making sure aoe sustain is very limited (like drks drain which is meh, but alright when it's up in aoe). I want to work together with a big pull instead of just doing 100% of the job for the healer without feeling like im ever in danger

[Post]

Yo what's hilarious is that DRK used to kick ass at self sustaining in dungeon pulls using the old GCD version of Dark Arts Abyssal Drain. It was never on the level of WAR with Bloodbath for single target, but it was perfectly fine in AoE with Blood Price generating MP to burn on Abyssal Drains.

I would like to see them return to making Dark Arts more versatile again, that was a fun part of DRK. Like drop TBN to level 35 for starters, but when it pops maybe let DRK choose to spend the free Edge or Flood on an Abyssal Drain outside of its cooldown instead, or letting Quietus steal generate big hp like in PvP (and the old Steel Cyclone). That kind of thing.

I guess this wouldn't help healers being pointless in dungeons or all the tanks being overtuned, but it might give some flavor back to DRK's mitigation now that they took everything for role actions in StB but gave it TBN, but then gave every tank TBN but better in ShB/EW. It could be a tank with mitigation combo chains.

Dungeons definitely haven't kept up with tanks, though, even at min ilvl, and especially WAR, so I hope something changes.

[Supersnow845]

This all comes back to the fact that square is way way too focused on trying to baby healers for no reason and because of it it breeds healers that can’t play the game properly

Because of the horrible design of the modern healers damage is the only thing that matters for healers but since the healers are so easy because square keeps babying them people who aren’t good at the game are drawn to healers, this has the flow on effect of said people liking WAR because they don’t have to try to do DPS because the WAR is it’s own healer, whereas DRK you actually have to be somewhat aware of your kit in order to keep the DRK alive in more spicy pulls

I don’t think bloodwhetting is balanced regardless but 99% of tank mitigation design problems are ultimately healer problems because square has so thoroughly ripped the healer role apart that they are forced to straight up give parts of its job to the other roles in order to maintain some semblance of the holy trinity

Problems with tank design (other than zairava’s point about DRK’s boring and unimaginative combat design) ultimately comes down to how badly healers are designed, square absolutely needs to rethink the way they design healers because 2 expansions worth of bad healer design has now even ruined tank design and is pulling down DPS design (rezz and support tax anyone)

I don’t mean to make a tank thread about healers but besides DRK’s combat design I can’t think of a single tank problem that can’t be fixed by actually fixing healers first