Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons

[MikoRemi]

Oh yeah Blood Price. I forget it's that one but doesn't help that it's difficult to recheck every past action. I still say Delirium could be that button though but if they'd rather bring Blood Price back with that change and then Delirium into something else, that'd be cool.

EO isn't the only place with such a thing, the main thing is BW isn't all it's cracked up to be as if it's HG on 25 second cooldown, it just isn't. Can go on all about technicalities but until it gives straight up invuln, it is not.

Clearly people are enjoying it, while a vocal minority aren't. Healers in general need a more interesting rotation and the other tanks(not PLD), need more sustain tools since they're lacking which is where the pain comes from. We can have the trinity for the heavier content but especially for casual content, I have very little faith and would rather make sure I can keep the party going if need be. BW is a nice tool, but it isn't I win, that's just exaggeration. I win is BW giving all your attacks an extra 100k potency.

So Bardam's Mettle and The Burn? We needed our healers which everyone wants, but when I suggest the idea, oh no were dead with the boost. Can we pick a side and stick with it?

Indeed but it's how it was done quite specifically really. I mean I can remember some of the Living Dead threads but nowadays it's just throw tomatoes at WAR which is very helpful surely.

If Abyssal Drain was brought back now using MP but without the requirement of Dark Arts spam, it'd be a lot better. SB had a lot of quirky things like that where nowadays were quite strong. I still remember when Defiance was level 30...quite a long time before we could keep RDM's from ripping aggro. Diversion? Nobody uses that apparently despite being one button.

As usual there won't be any common ground to find here. If MCH could transition from SHB to EW with no kit changes until later, well see how DT goes but I'll wager WAR will just keep what it has now. Nerfs aren't the way until it gets as busted SMN outperforming over BLM and SAM by a landslide. Then maybe well have something. The tanks would probably get fixed a little more if two of them weren't crying about nerfs constantly on the one tank doing well. At least they leave PLD be, it's been a rough ride.

[Shurrikhan]

Not having Heated Clean Shot

Is a potency upgrade to Clean Shot. Machinist having "its 123" is not locked behind that upgrade to the "3" you already had.

That's not even going into stuff like Hypercharge coming at lvl 30 but Heat Blast coming at lvl 35 if you want to get really specific.

If you want to get really specific, that's because Hypercharge grants a potency buff regardless of whether it's used on Heat Blast, Auto-crossbow or anything else. (Which is also why Heat Blast's direct ppgcd is 366, not 333.)

The point I'm trying to make regardless, is there are some abilities that are locked way ahead that really don't feel good to be missing from the earlier kits.

On this, pretty much anyone would agree. And already had across these forums since Stormblood.

To get back to the main point, though...

the main thing is BW isn't all it's cracked up to be as if it's HG on 25 second cooldown, it just isn't.

Read the content type mentioned in the title. Is it... trials? Is it... raids? EO boss fights?

No. It's dungeons. Wherein, yes, BW is essentially a cast of Benediction per GCD, for 4 GCDs straight.

Clearly people are enjoying it, while a vocal minority aren't.

Do you specifically enjoy it being braindead?

Ignore the power level; we're talking gameplay here. Do you specifically enjoy that it no longer has any interaction with the rest of your kit beyond just keeping your GCD rolling?

Healers in general need a more interesting rotation and the other tanks(not PLD), need more sustain tools since they're lacking which is where the pain comes from.

No. We don't. PLD and WAR should both have their flat sustain slightly tuned down or dungeons ought to be made harder (which devalues flat sustain, achieving very similar results). We can have the trinity for the heavier content but especially for casual content, I have very little faith and would rather make sure I can keep the party going if need be.

BW is a nice tool, but it isn't I win, that's just exaggeration. I win is BW giving all your attacks an extra 100k potency.

No one has said it is an "I win" button outside of obvious hyperbole. Fights aren't ended through healing. You're strawmanning again.

Again, though, it is effectively a multi-cast Benediction when used in AoE. An "I live" button, though? In the relevant context here? Absolutely.

I mean I can remember some of the Living Dead threads but nowadays it's just throw tomatoes at WAR which is very helpful surely.

Those two things have nothing to do with each other, and a huge portion of those throwing tomatoes at WAR's Endwalker design... are the WAR mains.

SB had a lot of quirky things like that where nowadays were quite strong. I still remember when Defiance was level 30...quite a long time before we could keep RDM's from ripping aggro. Diversion? Nobody uses that apparently despite being one button.

What does this have to do... with anything? Every tank got their tank stance at 30 (except PLD, who originally got it at 30). You were not single out. Every tank had hefty enmity modifiers on its combo skills, its ranged attack, and it first AoE; you didn't typically need the tank stance to hold threat unless you were significantly less geared and/or skilled than your DPS.

I don't get what you're even trying to 'prove' here.

Nerfs aren't the way until it gets as busted SMN outperforming over BLM and SAM by a landslide.

Nerfs are exactly the way whenever the outlier is a relative excess of strength, just as buffs are the way when the outlier is a relative lack of strength. The point is to correct an imbalance.

[MikoRemi]

snip

Ok, still doesn't invalidate it being inexcusable to have the final part locked behind SB just about every other job has their basic chains finished by the end of HW.

Ok and who unironically would use Hypercharge on anything but the actual heat skills unless they're braindead. Even bad MCH's I see don't do that.

Indeed it's dungeons. Can you separate a skill based on dungeons then trials then raids? No you can't. You cut it off in one section you'll cut it off in multiple. I may be peculiar on some details but even I can see the bigger picture than that.

What you call braindead is your business. I consider BLM pretty braindead and most people would say it's a hard job. Difficulty is subjective, tanks in general aren't hard to begin with.

A skill that does what it says on the tin is whatever. It's the same reason why I wouldn't care if Vengeance lost the Physical reflect it has. I got my combo chain state, I got my Inner Release state. Want more, go play GNB or something.

Harder dungeons don't devalue sustain, they increase the value by making it more necessary. I wouldn't lose the button itself and it still works like a charm which feels better than just having a worse button. Healer's also absolutely need a better rotation than just Dia>glare>etc.

Tell me you didn't read Zairava's comment without telling me just to try to make me look foolish. They specifically stated; "Having an I win button every 25s...", and I'm saying it's silly and untrue. I don't care about effectives, it is or isn't. Guess which one it is.

Don't know which WAR mains you're talking to, because a lot I hear from are loving how great the job is. One look at the threads here shows many DRK's giving such opinions along with MCH and I guess a SCH. The Living Dead comment is just in relation to how it took a lot of WAR's screaming specifically for Living Dead to get better as a show of how asking for buffs is better than nerfs. Sure some DRK's ask for that as they should, but a lot of WAR's screaming and especially how EXACTLY Living Dead works now...it's a bit of a funny coincidence when it's down to the wording.

Part 1 of 2.

[MikoRemi]

Everyone loves to glorify the ways of old and it frankly gets tiring to hear about sometimes. Not everything from before was amazing, hence why I mention all that old stuff. At least try to look into why I even responded with that.

Outliers was the patch when SMN was excessively, not just slightly but EXCESSIVELY more overpowered than BLM and SAM. Can't remember if it was SB or SHB at this point, been years, but that patch was insane for those. Here we have good healing I guess because two tanks lack decent heals, and we had to get good damage because funny P8S incident, and we still aren't even the highest DPS of all the tanks, not that we need to be of course. The outlier is in the other jobs needing to get up more, not SMN having a silly accident causing it to shoot way above even the strongest DPS. There's two ways to correct imbalance here, and yet you only want to look at the lazier and worse option. If you don't agree then that's whatever I guess.

Part 2 of 2.

[Zairava]

Indeed it's dungeons. Can you separate a skill based on dungeons then trials then raids? No you can't. You cut it off in one section you'll cut it off in multiple. I may be peculiar on some details but even I can see the bigger picture than that.

If we're still talking strictly Bloodwhetting, we can, since Holy Spirit/Circle/Req Combo all are cure potency per use, not per mob. It's on demand as well thanks to combo enders providing Divine Might.

Tell me you didn't read Zairava's comment without telling me just to try to make me look foolish. They specifically stated; "Having an I win button every 25s...", and I'm saying it's silly and untrue. I don't care about effectives, it is or isn't. Guess which one it is.

No one has said it is an "I win" button outside of obvious hyperbole. Fights aren't ended through healing. You're strawmanning again.

Emphasis on outside of obvious hyperbole, you either didn't notice I was being hyperbolic or neglected to read the other half of Shurrikhans statement.

Don't know which WAR mains you're talking to, because a lot I hear from are loving how great the job is.

It can perform great and still receive criticism on being too easy to play.

The Living Dead comment is just in relation to how it took a lot of WAR's screaming specifically for Living Dead to get better as a show of how asking for buffs is better than nerfs. Sure some DRK's ask for that as they should, but a lot of WAR's screaming and especially how EXACTLY Living Dead works now...it's a bit of a funny coincidence when it's down to the wording.

This is increasingly infuriating to read. It was not Warrior mains specifically that got Living Dead changed. It was several years of criticism and feedback from the majority of the playerbase to finally get that changed. I seen it on here, on reddit, in-game, etc. It was not specifically Warrior mains.

Everyone loves to glorify the ways of old and it frankly gets tiring to hear about sometimes. Not everything from before was amazing, hence why I mention all that old stuff. At least try to look into why I even responded with that.

In case it hasn't been made clear yet, it could, ya know, be those of us who enjoyed the old job design and hated seeing it get gutted. Regarding the tanks specifically, they could have just buffed tank stance to it's current form of enmity generation and nothing else and it would have been better than the oversimplification that was wrought.

Here we have good healing I guess because two tanks lack decent heals, and we had to get good damage because funny P8S incident, and we still aren't even the highest DPS of all the tanks, not that we need to be of course. The outlier is in the other jobs needing to get up more, not SMN having a silly accident causing it to shoot way above even the strongest DPS. There's two ways to correct imbalance here, and yet you only want to look at the lazier and worse option. If you don't agree then that's whatever I guess.

Dps is it's own issue with power creep, especially with the unneeded potency boosts when Shadowbringers launched. However, it's totally unrelated to sustain and defence unless you want to stretch it out and use the "killing faster = mitigation" stance.

The other tanks. do. not. need the healing. Dark Knight, especially the good Dark Knights, don't need it. We get by just fine. Unless the healing, if we get it, actually has some sort of cost warranting us to actually need to pay attention to anything in our kit (such as MP cost), I do not want it anywhere near Dark Knight. If they were to keep DRK as is for whatever unholy reason, it would only serve to further make it a copy paste of WAR otherwise.

[MikoRemi]

snip

That's Paladin's thing. They already have Holy Sheltron at this point and if they're desperate for a super heal, Clemency is an option. Although with how much longer their Requiscat combo is, it makes up for it fine. Also shields are handy when you crunch down a bit. That's just sticking with those skills in particular of course.

No need to bring in hyperbole then. It's not a strawman when you say it yourself. Just say it's a good button like normal folk. It's not hard.

Again, tanks are easy to play in general and difficulty is subjective. If you don't like it that's fine, it's when you want to crunch it down is when there's an issue.

Of course it's not specifically, but come now, the timing is just too funny not to bring up and with how the wording is. I wouldn't have been surprised if they changed it but let it cleanse early still to screw DRK's over, but they had the foresight to make sure that wouldn't happen. That's good for the record, but I wasn't expecting them to do that so early~.

I mean personal preference aside, I already had to accept things like party responsibility with skills like Erase/Mana Shift/Diversion/etc. are gone and wasn't as amazing as I loved to believe years ago. Stance dancing was whatever because all WAR was already was just Defiance>Unchained>Tomahawk>Equilibrium>Deliverance>go ham fam. Stacks is always just nicer in regards to ping and not needing to rely on Skill Speed to be stable, and having an actual good Shake it Off is nice, people hated when it was just a group Esuna. In theory it's neat to look backwards but unfortunately people are too lazy to know what Goad or Diversion are, so it had to change. It's much less frustrating now to DF, doubly so when WAR makes it so I don't have to worry about the horrors of PUG's.

Part 1 of 2.

[MikoRemi]

I bring up SMN primarily because of how much of a jump it was especially in regards to what it brought. WAR now is like...decent DPS but not even the max DPS compared to likes of DRK? Again that's fine, but people make it sound like it's 5% ahead of every tank or something, it gets ridiculous. Personal preference if other tanks don't need the healing, DRK of course has really good shields EVENTUALLY that make it harder to take damage...but then people still gasp in horror when they see a DRK in dungeons, Dark Mind is still a mess, Dark Missionary comes ungodly late for absolutely no reason, and so on. I mean I'd take Abyssal Drain being on MP cost if I wanted to be lazy, but Blood Price becoming a beast by healing back 50% of the damage and some MP for a sweet boost? Man that sounds really fun. GNB could still gain some shields during its burst window as well, also make No Mercy longer so everything can fit cleanly, but that means not burdening the healer too much by going combo ham and risking DPS within the small weave windows. Aurora and Heart of Corundum only do so much even if they're...fine.

Of course if you don't want that well, enjoy more threads of DRK needing help, because they'll just keep coming. I'd personally like if they didn't have Inner Release 0.5 or Fell Cleave 0.5, not even WAR's asked for that. That doesn't make healing a taboo though a WAR only sin(you mention copy paste, not me~). For this thread though, I'll just stick with the above plans if they wanted to put in some good stuff for the two tanks.

Part 2 of 2.

[Zairava]

I bring up SMN primarily because of how much of a jump it was especially in regards to what it brought. WAR now is like...decent DPS but not even the max DPS compared to likes of DRK? Again that's fine, but people make it sound like it's 5% ahead of every tank or something, it gets ridiculous.

I don't care what damage each tank is doing. I want DRK have its own combat identity again.

Personal preference if other tanks don't need the healing, DRK of course has really good shields EVENTUALLY that make it harder to take damage...but then people still gasp in horror when they see a DRK in dungeons

All this ultimately means is that the healer has to heal more, which is... oh no? I guess? They are the ones who signed up to heal.

Dark Mind is still a mess, Dark Missionary comes ungodly late for absolutely no reason, and so on. I mean I'd take Abyssal Drain being on MP cost if I wanted to be lazy, but Blood Price becoming a beast by healing back 50% of the damage and some MP for a sweet boost? Man that sounds really fun.

• Dark mind just needs 10% mit tacked on to it
• Agree on Dark Missionary
• Why not both for Abyssal Drain and Blood Price? I would rather just let Blood Price give MP and Blood Gauge like it did in Stormblood and let Abyssal Drain do the sustaining, though.

GNB could still gain some shields during its burst window as well, also make No Mercy longer so everything can fit cleanly, but that means not burdening the healer too much by going combo ham and risking DPS within the small weave windows. Aurora and Heart of Corundum only do so much even if they're...fine.

GNB honestly doesn't need more healing or mits, it's the most well rounded tank between both sustain and defence currently.

Of course if you don't want that well, enjoy more threads of DRK needing help, because they'll just keep coming. I'd personally like if they didn't have Inner Release 0.5 or Fell Cleave 0.5, not even WAR's asked for that. That doesn't make healing a taboo though a WAR only sin(you mention copy paste, not me~). For this thread though, I'll just stick with the above plans if they wanted to put in some good stuff for the two tanks.

People complaining about DRK needing help is literally a skill issue, especially after Living Dead got adjusted. Not going to sugarcoat it.

The literal only things separating DRK from Warrior right now is DRK's defensive kit and the fact its burst is busier. DRK has even less going on in burst downtime then WAR somehow, ironically.