Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Interesting to have a DF healer somehow annoyed they don't need to heal you, most are relieved around Aether at least. As a GNB and DRK that's pretty neato too since wall to wall pulls can hurt a bit, but that's just a sign of good tanking. Having healed before, most tanks in general forget what Rampart and Arm's Length is over their other cooldowns[...]

I'm one those healer mains (alongside all healer mains within my own social circle with varied degree of proficiency) that would actually groan whenever we get a WAR in our DF dungeon runs because we know we're not going to need to press more than 1-2 from our bajillion shiny healing buttons---sometimes NONE of them because there are some WARs who knows which order & when exactly they should press their bloodwhetting & other cooldowns. If DF que doesn't enforce a 1T1H2D compo I might as well beg to be vote dismissed so I can rejoin (lol) as 3rd DPS whenever I see WARs---I'm literally there because DF says I have to be.

Tank-Healer dynamic are being designed without the perspective of a healer main (It should come from both sides imho). Do they have no idea why do we pick up the role from first place? Have they forgotten there's this one role in their own game that in its nature interacts with party interplay more often than other roles? Why do they keep removing these interplay just because some booboo cries from their own or another's incompetence?

The reality is people just play at different skill level. Some are going to be suck. Some going to be mediocre. Some going to be flawless. And we're going to come across all these individuals---it's an MMO. Dumb things down and people will always find ways to be even more dumb. Do we seriously want to accommodate even lower after reaching certain point?

With all that being said, I'm not saying tanks should have 0% agency in the matter. The current status quo is ain't it however (shrugging off healer from 95% health boss can be funny/hilarious on a tank/dps perspective, but is absolutely miserable from the healer's perspective because you are playing the game for them, metaphorically speaking). And even if that came to be, is still not the magical solution because frankly healer issue is another whole can of worm that I'd rather not see being peeled at the moment. (much less in a tank sub-forum of all places!)

tl;dr giving Bloodwhetting treatment to 3 other tanks will remove what little vestiges (read: cookie crumbs) that currently remains on one from 3 major role in the game. Don't do that. Unless one day they just decide to rip off the bandage and nuke the holy trinity system out of the orbit lmao.

[MikoRemi]

I'm one those healer mains (alongside all healer mains within my own social circle with varied degree of proficiency) that would actually groan whenever we get a WAR in our DF dungeon runs because we know we're not going to need to press more than 1-2 from our bajillion shiny healing buttons---sometimes NONE of them because there are some WARs who knows which order & when exactly they should press their bloodwhetting & other cooldowns. If DF que doesn't enforce a 1T1H2D compo I might as well beg to be vote dismissed so I can rejoin (lol) as 3rd DPS whenever I see WARs---I'm literally there because DF says I have to be.

A rare breed, but a statistical eventuality, just like WAR's who press their buttons so bad they actually die. Terrifying to see but it does exist unfortunately.

I do agree they would need to work on healers more, mostly in giving them actual stuff to do like giving back Miasma 2 and Shadowflare and weaving the jobs in to be more Sage-like in having offensive healing so Cure bots die off and the jobs are allowed to be a little more interesting. Also I can definitely say they're the only real ones who can cleanse, and that's already getting leaned into with the dooms lately. Who knows where else things will go, but I'll hope for the best.

Indeed, yet with the environment currently, there isn't too much need to push oneself. Doing so though either wastes time or worse, gets people destroyed needlessly. Of course people will always be dumb, so I'd like to protect myself and others with my Bloodwhetting and Nascent. I'd love for players to be challenged more but with Stormblood showing me when they tried, yeah DPS can't even be bothered to hit a shiny button that lowers their aggro generation.

I would still put the healer issues into the healer thread really, that's a whole other can of worms not for this thread. Here it's about tank mitigation overall, and yeah there's some tanks that have good mits, some that clearly don't.

I doubt they'll nuke the trinity since it's core to the game, but there needs to be a little more redesigning. What SE decides to do, I don't know. Hopefully Dawntrail will work on reviewing stuff overall over the coming months. I'd rather everyone be happy though, but gutting a class isn't the way. Start the nerf train, and it's a ride that has no brakes.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]I would still put the healer issues into the healer thread really, that's a whole other can of worms not for this thread. Here it's about tank mitigation overall, and yeah there's some tanks that have good mits, some that clearly don't.[...]

I'm only bringing up WAR and healing talks briefly because that's exactly the OP wants to see happening to DRK.

[...]I shouldn’t have to rely on gear or hope my healer is good at the game to be able to clear a dungeon on a tank.

I'm not going to sugarcoat it: that literally screams "I want to unga bunga in dungeon oh so who cares about the enjoyment of that one role which DF forces upon us to have in order to even start the duty!" --- at which point, why are we catering to the folks who refuses to budge in a group content? Let them stay suck, leave duty, vote dismiss, or improve.

This reminds me a of post from another forum dweller (same sentiment, but this is going a little bit of tangent here so I'll just /HB it):

Support classes in general feel like garbage in this game but BRD probably feels the worst because not only does it suffer from the problems of every other support class, but it also had a fun dps setup that got completely gutted for no discernible reason.

In other multiplayer games where party synergy actually exists, playing a support class feels good. These games are getting rarer and rarer, and it's definitely not a thing in 14. The only times a party syncs up in 14 is to hit their buff button on the 120s mark. Things like MP management basically do not exist unless you consider pressing lucid dreaming off cd for like 3 jobs "management" in which case lmao. Even if bard got an MP regen song, it would not affect like 90% of jobs in this game because most jobs don't use mana for anything. Bard's current songs affect things like crit chance and direct hit, basically invisible number stuff that you can't actually feel when you're partied up with a bard player. In essence, this means if a bard parties you, you might not even notice you're being buffed. This is incredibly shitty from just a "how does it feel to play this support class" angle. Compare this to other MMOs with actual support/party synergy elements. A support class might actually boost your attack speed so that you can accomplish more during your burst. This changes the entire feel of your class and makes you keenly aware of the fact that you're being supported. CBU3 lost track of this and doesn't want us to actually rely on our party members at all, so now all the support jobs just feel hella boring. But on top of this, BRD's DoTs actually felt meaningful in shb because they fed into your ability to take advantage of your songs. Now though, the DoTs don't do anything. Why? Was someone out there forgetting to just press Iron Jaws? So now we all get to pay for it? Who asked for this change? It makes aoe in dungeons slower and it makes the DoTs themselves completely meaningless; just remove them entirely if you're gonna cut out their purpose.

I seriously can't wrap my head around how bad support classes feel in this game sometimes. In the MMO I'm playing right now, the main support class boosts your attack speed, boosts your defense, boosts your accuracy, and boosts your attack power all while also debuffing other enemies. For people on the receiving end of these buffs, this has the effect of "I can't kill this monster by myself, but if I party up with [support class] I'll be faster, be able to hit the monster I want to kill for more damage, and not get immediately killed if I'm hit in turn." See how there's a noticeable difference from support buffs in a game where party synergy is a thing? See how that difference isn't only noticeable if you're eyeing a dps meter? For this to happen in 14, they'd need to basically roll back the game 3 expansions and suddenly make people dependent on each other again via things like MP/TP management. Players would riot and quit in droves because everyone who preferred that system probably quit ages ago and have been replaced by people who just want to do their 123 and not care about the rest of their group -- which is a fair thing to want, since most people you'll meet in this game suck at it.

[HyonaCookie]

I'm not going to sugarcoat it: that literally screams "I want to unga bunga in dungeon oh so who cares about the enjoyment of that one role which DF forces upon us to have in order to even start the duty!" --- at which point, why are we catering to the folks who refuses to budge in a group content? Let them stay suck, leave duty, vote dismiss, or improve.

I have seen healers say they'd rather be in a party with a WAR cos then they don't have to heal and can just DPS without care. I have seen them complain whenever they get a DRK in the party and even say they'd rather take a 30min penalty than deal with DRK. I have even seen on other sites such as Twitter and Reddit people saying DRK should be banned from being used in dungeons and we should harrass people out of playing the job. WHy should I care about the feelings of healers when they don't care about mine?

[Rithy255]

I have seen healers say they'd rather be in a party with a WAR cos then they don't have to heal and can just DPS without care. I have seen them complain whenever they get a DRK in the party and even say they'd rather take a 30min penalty than deal with DRK. I have even seen on other sites such as Twitter and Reddit people saying DRK should be banned from being used in dungeons and we should harrass people out of playing the job. WHy should I care about the feelings of healers when they don't care about mine?

Yeah that's because people don't even know how to heal anymore in dungeon content with the consequences of how warrior is currently designed for dungeons (pld to a certain extent) and how dungeons have become so easy, I really don't get why people would be upset with a decent DRK (outside zot or dead ends, which yeah I can understand might be frustrating if the drk isn't really good, but honestly just be patient at worst you'll wipe once or twice lol),

The alternative to nerfing warrior in dungeon content is buffing every other tank, which just feels kind of bad to me I dislike how warrior feels as a tank, I don't like the "press one button and heal max" in aoe, I think we need to stop babying healers and a step towards that is making pulls more rougher in general and making sure aoe sustain is very limited (like drks drain which is meh, but alright when it's up in aoe). I want to work together with a big pull instead of just doing 100% of the job for the healer without feeling like im ever in danger