Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons

[MikoRemi]

AOE sustain on warrior just isn't fun IMO, fully healing yourself 4 times in a row in AOE cannot be balanced, unless we reduced the potency which then would make it bad for raids. I'd actually enjoy warrior in aoe more if it wasn't like that personally, Yeah again it's dungeons but dungeons shouldn't teach players that you can afk the tanks going to do all the healing in the pulls.
I hope you get where im coming from at least though, Like I can get why people might find it fun, but I think it takes too much from healers currently.

Bloodbath would actually make a interesting role action for tanks (aslong as it worked for drk too, as it doesn't work with magic attacks) as Bloodbath really isn't that strong potency wise, don't actually get why it's designed for melees now? like bloodbath makes way more sense as a tank tool.

That's your opinion though. Having the sustain be useful in dungeons and raid settings whether it's from the AOE sustain or the barrier/mitigation potential, it's quite nice to have. It'd be a real shame to have it be touched, and there's far bigger things to touch really. Want to teach players not to AFK, there's been doom lately making the rounds since Fell Court of Troia since we moved away from the Bardam's Mettle puzzle boss style. Want to also not AFK, try content that's Extreme or higher and watch things get hellish if you do such a thing.
I can see where you're coming from but there's other ways to deal with it than harming a piece of kit. It's also just a difference of opinions at any rate, you don't like the sustain, I do, DRK is more for you then I suppose although unless that PLD status is old, maybe you prefer not as strong healing, fine by me but I got WAR for the big stuff. Some shifts include either adding some more elements to the combat design overall or giving something else to the other classes. Healer's should have that discussion on their threads, but I can say it's primarily their super boring "rotation" that's the bigger problem here. The healing is quite necessary for the actual hard content.

Bloodbath used to be a Warrior ability long long ago that was taken away and given to Melee's, which should get some good sustain since Second Wind is frankly near useless. Sure, you can maybe clutch survive one thing, but Bloodbath can do much much more. We don't need it now though, PLD has many forms of healing, WAR as well, GNB has a couple regens, and DRK could just use a reworked Blood Price. Melee and Tanks can enjoy the best of both worlds and I wouldn't want to take Bloodbath back from them, just give DRK something and maybe a tiny bit of help for GNB since that 25 second combo window is quite long unless you pop something before using it I suppose.

[Lyth]

The fun of lifesteal comes from keeping yourself alive against all odds. It's about risk. The community used to love 8 WAR/solo WAR runs back in ARR because those clears came right down to the wire. The example that I linked is one of the most entertaining examples of this (such an underrated video). Now, whenever you hear of an all WAR group clearing content, it's just not all that remarkable or exciting, because you know they're just hitting max health on demand. It's too safe.

I feel like the current iteration of WAR isn't designed for people who are actually interested in lifesteal and high risk tanking. It's designed for those tanks who, on hitting 90% HP on a single pack pull, pop all of their defensive cooldowns, burst into tears, and start screeching at their healers to heal them. It's just a mix of passive regens and on demand burst heals that function as a security blanket rather than requiring planning, precise timing, or understanding of incoming damage. I understand that the WAR and PLD changes this expansion were deliberately done to remove tanks' reliance on healers, but you can use other forms of self-healing to support beginner tank gameplay. Lifesteal deserves better implementation than this.

The most interesting lifesteal actions are contextual, in that the amount of healing depends on timing. Actions like Warcraft's Death Strike are designed to heal you based off of how much damage you've taken in the past few seconds, rather than being a fixed potency. Rewinding damage is a similarly fun concept in that it is timing dependent. The timing is where the element of risk comes in.

[MikoRemi]

I either pick to solo heal myself or help mit and heal a party member at the right timing. Bold to assume all WAR’s love to single pack and cry if they aren’t topped off, I like to see how low I can go and so do the good healers. Long as HP isn’t 0, all is fine.

If you want your risky heals then I guess DRK is just fine with Living Dead then, if they can make it more interesting then I’d be curious but then well be seeing more dead tanks. I already remember the woes of Stormblood despite the cool concepts, primarily because you can’t trust the community with that kind of stuff when they already don’t know what materia are

I mean if people wanna 8 man content with WAR then it’s whatever. Seeing Kou with his 4 man healer party in ARR was cool to see, but that’s not a common occurrence just like 8 man WAR parties, or the famed no phys ranged comps.

[Shurrikhan]

That's your opinion though. Having the sustain be useful in dungeons and raid settings whether it's from the AOE sustain or the barrier/mitigation potential, it's quite nice to have.

How is this relevant to what you're quoting, though? No one said that no tank should have AoE-scaled sustain. The problem is the procedure of that AoE sustain providing so great a degree of output that it devalues one's other tools.

TBN is still useful, largely necessary, and plenty fun in dungeons. Heart of Corundom is still useful, largely necessary, and plenty fun in dungeons. Holy Sheltron is still useful, largely necessary, and plenty fun in dungeons.. They don't need to be as busted as Bloodwhetting's output in AoE to be useful, largely necessary, and plenty fun in dungeons.

It'd be a real shame to have it be touched, and there's far bigger things to touch really.

Cue the whataboutisms. Let's hope they're at least relevant...

Want to teach players not to AFK, there's been doom lately making the rounds since Fell Court of Troia since we moved away from the Bardam's Mettle puzzle boss style.

A Doom that cannot be cleansed except through Esuna from failing to dodge provides no more tank gameplay that --you guessed it-- the Bardam's Mettle puzzle boss.

Want to also not AFK, try content that's Extreme or higher and watch things get hellish if you do such a thing.

Which is, as literally as can be... not a dungeon. The complaints are about dungeon gameplay. The thread is about dungeon gameplay. Dungeons. Not Extremes or higher. Dungeons.

I can see where you're coming from but there's other ways to deal with it than harming a piece of kit.

It is not "harming" a piece of kit to ask to return it to being interactive with the rest of the kit (such as by reverting it to its Shadowbringer's functionality, complete with the extra options and agency that entailed).

[MikoRemi]

snip.

Read what Rithy is saying, they're the one pointing out that WAR shouldn't have AoE healing, specifically with; "warrior shouldn't get aoe sustain (400 heal per hit not per enemy)". All because; "AOE sustain on warrior just isn't fun IMO". Hence why I said that's their opinion.

Nobody is saying TBN isn't useful, but the shield does much less to protect from a mob attack over sustain, shields are strongest with single deadly blows which aren't common in dungeons to say the least. Heart of Corundum is fine, the continuation combo could give some shielding itself so somewhere in that 25 second window you don't have to slam a mit or lose DPS, and PLD doesn't need it because they got Clemency/Holy Spirit/Holy Circle just to name a few other healing alternatives. I personally love WAR's healing and then PLD, while GNB doesn't quite heal enough to be comfortable but Superbolide can make up for it.

Is it really a whataboutism? I know you don't love to read other posts but we already have things like Dark Mind to touch let alone other things.

Welp, everyone loves to say Bloodwhetting solves everything including you, so that doesn't really answer much other than just trying to dodge with "no more tank gameplay".

And again, can skills be separated from dungeon or raid? Don't think so. Not to mention Lyth already brought up 8 man WAR solo runs which if I'm not mistaken, isn't a dungeon. But hey, crucify me specifically~.

Or we can just have a single target version that's particularly strong for what it should be, or choosing to use the partner version that's weaker but supportive, an element of choice if you will. No real need to revert something that's fine. A good revert was giving Energy Drain back to SCH back in SHB because removing that was a complete mistake.

[Oizen]

Essentially agree other than the non AOE sustain on WAR. Might as well make Melee Bloodbath only heal per GCD, that'll make it real sad.

Rest though is quite fine.

This is a bit disingenuous isnt it? Bloodbath heals based on damage done. As a melee, if you bloodbath a crowd of mobs, you're not really transformed into that much of a tank. The healing is very gradual, and beyond that it has a 20s cd because its not supposed to heal you all to max at once.

WAR might actually be more interesting if its healing was locked away behind its infuriate skills specifically while just spamming basic combos barely healed you at all. Would give the job way more decision making on where and when to use your fattest attacks if your healing scaled up and down with damage.

[MikoRemi]

This is a bit disingenuous isnt it? Bloodbath heals based on damage done. As a melee, if you bloodbath a crowd of mobs, you're not really transformed into that much of a tank. The healing is very gradual, and beyond that it has a 20s cd because its not supposed to heal you all to max at once.

WAR might actually be more interesting if its healing was locked away behind its infuriate skills specifically while just spamming basic combos barely healed you at all. Would give the job way more decision making on where and when to use your fattest attacks if your healing scaled up and down with damage.

It still hits in an AoE which is what im referring to in that post specifically whenever Rithy wants to bring up; "warrior shouldn't get aoe sustain (400 heal per hit not per enemy)". If Warrior can't have AoE healing then might as well shift it since it's the same kind of healing, hit a button, heal from doing damage. It's not supposed to heal you all at once because of the status as a DPS, they can't even make Physick heal at a decent rate, and RDM's would be ok if it didn't have a slew of other issues that's for the DPS threads.

You'd find it more interesting that's for sure. It's whatever to me. Just having a button that lets you heal as well as mitigate and shield, or alternatively give a version to a friend while only healing yourself is fine enough. It works fine as is, so no real reason to change it. You know what would actually be interesting though? Giving DRK Blood Price back and let it heal back 50% of damage taken so it'll die slower. Also give Dark Mind that 10% phys reduction or just a flat 20% all across, and let Dark Missionary come earlier than 70. That'd already be an actual good use of time over shifting WAR who is doing right well for themselves.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]WAR might actually be more interesting if its healing was locked away behind its infuriate skills specifically while just spamming basic combos barely healed you at all. Would give the job way more decision making on where and when to use your fattest attacks if your healing scaled up and down with damage.

This over here, made ShB Nascent Flash felt satisfying to use. I remember back then there was no way you could sustain yourself with Nascent Flash > regular AoE combo in a wall pull. WARs in those time simply don't do enough dps to generate enough sustenance that way. Paired with Chaotic Cyclone & using it on Decimates however, it became a different story. It makes decision making actually a thing even in the most braindead content in the game.

Today's RI/BW made that decision making less of a factor while also eating away what's little left on the green role's job within dungeon. If this is a solo game I wouldn't care, but here we are lol.

[Rithy255]

At this point I think tanks in general need a "defensive kit" overhaul, not just for the sake of dungeons but for the sake of things hitting harder, I think some sustain on tank in general is healthy (I think Gunbreaker is like the best example of good sustain but not overbearing), mainly I just want to move away from tanks not even having to use defensives anymore.

General-
Make the 30% mitigations "unique" Just please make them separate at this point lol might as well be role actions if not, maybe even add more rewards to mitigating damage correctly by having a slight DPS increase (has to be very slight).

PLD-
Holy Shellron should Give like 15% mitigation and a 15% barrier, (sort of like pvp with the barrier aspect) they can also do similar to intervention (Just please rework the animation to look like pld channelling a holy sheltron onto ally instead of the bad one we got currently lol), maybe breaking the barrier would reward you with idk shield swipe, I'd love clemency to become OGCD and apart of "plds mp management" so if you spammed it too much it would ruin your magic phase but good use of it wouldn't effect you, Cover can go off gauge, DV healing shouldn't be burst should be regen once barrier breaks, not a fan of passage but some like it's cone, can remove the Magic healing in place of the clemency management

DRK-
Kinda like it if drk could "augment" its defensive abilities to do different effects (example swapping dark mind to physical, turning oblation into a small life steal changing shadow wall to be faster but weaker ect.) "dark arts" TBN breaking should reward you with 10% on your next magic ogcd attack, kinda like it if they got a barrier aoe (stronger then DV but no healing regen, unless using DA which would give only the healing sustain effect to team).

War-
Remove AOE sustain, remove shake for a strong enemy intimidation ability that reduces the enemy's damage by 15% (like a stronger reprisal), Kind of would like it if in like SHB war would have to choose either to mitigate or to heal, You could increase warriors base Hp by 20% passively as well.

GNB-
Tbh mostly keep the same (maybe a 5-10% hp increase like pvp), I'd like its aoe to also work in physical honestly i think GNB has one of the better mitigation tool kits even if its a bit standard.

[Zairava]

It still hits in an AoE which is what im referring to in that post specifically whenever Rithy wants to bring up; "warrior shouldn't get aoe sustain (400 heal per hit not per enemy)". If Warrior can't have AoE healing then might as well shift it since it's the same kind of healing, hit a button, heal from doing damage. It's not supposed to heal you all at once because of the status as a DPS, they can't even make Physick heal at a decent rate, and RDM's would be ok if it didn't have a slew of other issues that's for the DPS threads.

You'd find it more interesting that's for sure. It's whatever to me. Just having a button that lets you heal as well as mitigate and shield, or alternatively give a version to a friend while only healing yourself is fine enough. It works fine as is, so no real reason to change it. That'd already be an actual good use of time over shifting WAR who is doing right well for themselves.

Okay, I'm going to approach this at another angle.

It shouldn't be healing you to full as a tank effortlessly either. The power between Bloodwhetting and Bloodbath is totally incomparable if you're talking the use in aoe.

To test out how potent it actually is, I went in game and used both Bloodwhetting and Equilibrium multiple times.

At my item level (either 653 or 654), I have, rounded down, 114,000HP, and per weaponskill Bloodwhetting healed me for anywhere from ~8.8k-9.2k HP, and you should be getting 4 GCD's in, so now let's do the math.

Let's use the standard double pull in dungeons. Let's say you have 8 mobs on you. I'll use 9k as a medium then show the lowball 8.8k

• 9000*4=36,000 | 36,000*8 = 288,000 HP healed + 9,000eHP from the shield (totaling 297,000) + 10% flat mit for 8s
• 8.8k*4=35,200 | 35,200*8 = 281,000 HP healed + 8,800eHP from the shield (totaling 289,800) + 10% flat mit for 8s

Equilibrium is a flat 1,200 potency plus the HoT proved to be relative to the cure potency calculations from BW. Like the prior calcs I used rounded values.

• 27,000 + 22,500(HoT)=49,500 total

I could heal myself almost thrice over given that circumstance with Bloodwhetting. Even halving the amount of mobs still nets over your entire HP pool, this with a flat mit on top of everything else. Just the healing alone is almost 6 times higher than Equilibrium (5.818... using the 9,000 HP rounding), and halving the amount of mobs given the same 9k HP calc (144,000) is nearly three times more potent than Equilibrium (2.90...), and Bloodwhetting is on a 25s cooldown, Equilibrium on 60 seconds.

That is an absolutely ludicrous amount of healing that NO TANK should have readily available every 25s. The simple calcs I just listed don't include crit heals either. It's not "doing just well" or "doing just fine", you're basically immortal due to how fast it comes off cooldown and the sheer volume of self-healing from it. It ranges from one benediction to nearly four every 25 seconds. That people think this even remotely healthy balance on any tank with how completely mindless it is to perform is mind-boggling.