Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons

[Supersnow845]

Okay I’m just gonna tap out at this point it’s obvious we aren’t going to agree here, you won’t let go of the idea that WAR is the pinnacle of perfection and that everything should bend around that and I won’t give up the fact that I view WAR as an abomination that has no business existing in its current form

It’s also obvious the way we talk on the forum doesn’t work well, you take literally things that I mean in more vague sense (which is more a me problem)

So I guess thanks for the chat, it’s at least interesting to see the opinions of someone who thinks current WAR is a good thing

[MikoRemi]

I like the idea of having the other tanks join the party, and trying to find a way to make healers more entertaining and still doing their main job of healing, even if this is a tank thread at the end of the day but has to come up I guess.

Fair enough, with discussions like this I need to be specific here since this is for the game. Last I need is vague statements to muddy the conversation and potentially dilute points, but it is a different style sure.

I'm not the only one but I'm a more vocal speaker. I don't know anyone personally who engages in the forums and with what I've seen in the tank forums as is, I can see why. Us vs. Them is rampant, which is a shame but well see what happens in Dawntrail. If WAR gets a hit, it'll come back anyway. If it doesn't then it's just back to HW where it's still nice even at the start.

Back to the topic and others can join back in, I hope the other tanks can be happier too. I hate having other jobs be shafted so here's hoping the mitigation does get balanced, but it doesn't have to involve slapping around a job that does it well, but fixing the ones that need fixing. Maybe Dark Missionary can show up a little earlier since every other tank gets their raidwide defensive earlier than 70.

Cheers.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Interesting to have a DF healer somehow annoyed they don't need to heal you, most are relieved around Aether at least. As a GNB and DRK that's pretty neato too since wall to wall pulls can hurt a bit, but that's just a sign of good tanking. Having healed before, most tanks in general forget what Rampart and Arm's Length is over their other cooldowns[...]

I'm one those healer mains (alongside all healer mains within my own social circle with varied degree of proficiency) that would actually groan whenever we get a WAR in our DF dungeon runs because we know we're not going to need to press more than 1-2 from our bajillion shiny healing buttons---sometimes NONE of them because there are some WARs who knows which order & when exactly they should press their bloodwhetting & other cooldowns. If DF que doesn't enforce a 1T1H2D compo I might as well beg to be vote dismissed so I can rejoin (lol) as 3rd DPS whenever I see WARs---I'm literally there because DF says I have to be.

Tank-Healer dynamic are being designed without the perspective of a healer main (It should come from both sides imho). Do they have no idea why do we pick up the role from first place? Have they forgotten there's this one role in their own game that in its nature interacts with party interplay more often than other roles? Why do they keep removing these interplay just because some booboo cries from their own or another's incompetence?

The reality is people just play at different skill level. Some are going to be suck. Some going to be mediocre. Some going to be flawless. And we're going to come across all these individuals---it's an MMO. Dumb things down and people will always find ways to be even more dumb. Do we seriously want to accommodate even lower after reaching certain point?

With all that being said, I'm not saying tanks should have 0% agency in the matter. The current status quo is ain't it however (shrugging off healer from 95% health boss can be funny/hilarious on a tank/dps perspective, but is absolutely miserable from the healer's perspective because you are playing the game for them, metaphorically speaking). And even if that came to be, is still not the magical solution because frankly healer issue is another whole can of worm that I'd rather not see being peeled at the moment. (much less in a tank sub-forum of all places!)

tl;dr giving Bloodwhetting treatment to 3 other tanks will remove what little vestiges (read: cookie crumbs) that currently remains on one from 3 major role in the game. Don't do that. Unless one day they just decide to rip off the bandage and nuke the holy trinity system out of the orbit lmao.

[Oizen]

I'm not the only one but I'm a more vocal speaker. I don't know anyone personally who engages in the forums and with what I've seen in the tank forums as is, I can see why. Us vs. Them is rampant, which is a shame but well see what happens in Dawntrail. If WAR gets a hit, it'll come back anyway. If it doesn't then it's just back to HW where it's still nice even at the start.
Cheers.

I think you're being a bit dramatic about this.

The only part of WAR's kit thats being discussed here is the healing, which only takes place after the fact, no one wants its damage nerfed (the only reason it wasnt picked mid EW).
Issue stem entire on its healing output towering over the other tanks and making healers feel irrelevant.

Bloodwhetting healing per gcd rather than per target wouldn't even be a have an impact on raids.

[MikoRemi]

I think you're being a bit dramatic about this.

The only part of WAR's kit thats being discussed here is the healing, which only takes place after the fact, no one wants its damage nerfed (the only reason it wasnt picked mid EW).
Issue stem entire on its healing output towering over the other tanks and making healers feel irrelevant.

Bloodwhetting healing per gcd rather than per target wouldn't even be a have an impact on raids.

It already won't save a WAR from things like EO's one shot mechanics or extremely heavy hitting nuke busters in general. At least the healing helps where it can like dungeons or in content like Eureka and Bozja.

Might as well make Bloodbath healing per GCD then so it equalizes out. That won't miff the melee dps. If you want to only stick with Bloodwhetting then yeah it's just WAR targeting which gets really annoying to see them being seen as the source of all woes. Make it per GCD and wow, we can heal maybe 8k or 11k if we use our infuriates, that won't just be a complete nuke to the face.

Also people apparently do want WAR's damage nerfed because somehow it does more than DRK even though it doesn't do anywhere close to DRK's ceiling and all the damage depends on a per fight basis which either generally or at a max potential, favors DRK. So I'm not being all that dramatic really. As I'll keep saying, only reason the healing output makes it tower over other tanks is obviously the others(other than PLD) lack it, and healers just need a rework in general. Unless you want to tell me they're happy with dia>glare>glare>glare all day.

[MikoRemi]

I'm one those healer mains (alongside all healer mains within my own social circle with varied degree of proficiency) that would actually groan whenever we get a WAR in our DF dungeon runs because we know we're not going to need to press more than 1-2 from our bajillion shiny healing buttons---sometimes NONE of them because there are some WARs who knows which order & when exactly they should press their bloodwhetting & other cooldowns. If DF que doesn't enforce a 1T1H2D compo I might as well beg to be vote dismissed so I can rejoin (lol) as 3rd DPS whenever I see WARs---I'm literally there because DF says I have to be.

A rare breed, but a statistical eventuality, just like WAR's who press their buttons so bad they actually die. Terrifying to see but it does exist unfortunately.

I do agree they would need to work on healers more, mostly in giving them actual stuff to do like giving back Miasma 2 and Shadowflare and weaving the jobs in to be more Sage-like in having offensive healing so Cure bots die off and the jobs are allowed to be a little more interesting. Also I can definitely say they're the only real ones who can cleanse, and that's already getting leaned into with the dooms lately. Who knows where else things will go, but I'll hope for the best.

Indeed, yet with the environment currently, there isn't too much need to push oneself. Doing so though either wastes time or worse, gets people destroyed needlessly. Of course people will always be dumb, so I'd like to protect myself and others with my Bloodwhetting and Nascent. I'd love for players to be challenged more but with Stormblood showing me when they tried, yeah DPS can't even be bothered to hit a shiny button that lowers their aggro generation.

I would still put the healer issues into the healer thread really, that's a whole other can of worms not for this thread. Here it's about tank mitigation overall, and yeah there's some tanks that have good mits, some that clearly don't.

I doubt they'll nuke the trinity since it's core to the game, but there needs to be a little more redesigning. What SE decides to do, I don't know. Hopefully Dawntrail will work on reviewing stuff overall over the coming months. I'd rather everyone be happy though, but gutting a class isn't the way. Start the nerf train, and it's a ride that has no brakes.

[Oizen]

It already won't save a WAR from things like EO's one shot mechanics or extremely heavy hitting nuke busters in general.

Huh?
No tank is mitigating through Eureka Orthos's oneshot gimmicks. Nor would changing the ammount of hp recieved after the fact change anything about that. EO is terrible for tank solos.

And it already doesn't do that. Thats what stacking mitigations are for. DRKs aren't getting by on just TBN, You have Thrill of Battle, and your standard mits. I suggest using them?

I feel like you're just grasping at random things for the sake of trying to win an argument, so uh...have fun with that.

[MikoRemi]

Huh?
No tank is mitigating through Eureka Orthos's oneshot gimmicks. Nor would changing the ammount of hp recieved after the fact change anything about that. EO is terrible for tank solos.

Now you're getting it. Bloodwhetting isn't the crime against humanity everyone loves to make it out to be. If it was, it would handle everything on its own.

And indeed, I stick mitigations just fine like everyone else. If Bloodwhetting was like Holmgang on 25 seconds, and let you heal, I'd call for a nerf then sure. As it is, it's a very handy little tool that becomes another good addition to a fine kit. WAR and PLD shouldn't have to be the only ones with really good sustain though truthfully.

I'm hardly grasping, everyone else has to hard focus on WAR somehow being the most broken thing in multiple pieces of content as if it's somehow the only thing ever. You probably didn't read the thread with Supersnow which is understandable, but that's the crux of the arguments being made. Hard focusing on nerfing WAR won't solve anything. Fixing the others to stand up to par and going from there will be a lot more palatable in general and better for the long run. Honey over vinegar and all. If you have to pretend like I'm grasping for things haphazardly to win an argument as if that's a defense against any of your points however, then I'm afraid it's already over. Not like much will change anyway, suppose even if Dawntrail starts WAR in a less favorable position, 5 expansions show it will always come back each and every time anyway. Might as well focus on the actual jobs in need of good changes, WAR's can't be asking for everyone forever.

I'll leave the threads to it. You're welcome for Living Dead being better.

[Shurrikhan]

Now you're getting it. Bloodwhetting isn't the crime against humanity everyone loves to make it out to be. If it was, it would handle everything on its own.

"Endwalker's changes to Skill X makes it broken in respect to A and less fun than previously the case in all other respects, with gameplay and balance implications that result in degradation of both role gameplay and WAR gameplay itself."

"But what of not-A, huh?! Is it broken there?"

"No, but that's not the poi--"

"If it's not broken (everywhere), then what are any of you coMplAinIng about?"

[Rithy255]

Keep in mind this discussion is about dungeons, sure they're meant to be casual but this isn't a warrior in "raid" discussion.

Warrior in Dungeons is unbalance-able, You can make tanks pull more, make mobs hit harder and warrior would still fundamentally busted in AOE situations, It's current design with it's AOE healing is so ridiculous and it's every 25 seconds lasting 8 seconds, with the shortest invul that works well with BW, more sustain and defensives as backup that you'll rarely need to use anyway.

Warrior in raids is balance-able but likely a little overtuned for what it brings, also it's design just doesn't really make much sense being the "tank healer" even more then paladin is weird for the "berserker tank" Personally I'd want warrior to be a high damage, high hp and more selfish tank then current. I don't think warrior in raids is that unbalanced, but it's still kind of really good considering its low skill floor.

Is sustain a issue? No It's not a Issue, the issue is fights not allowing for high damage or high autos so that tanks actually have to make good use of that sustain in the first place, Again warriors sustain can be balanced, I personally would like a little bit of that sustain to go but I'm more concerned about it's "party healing aspects" And I'm not defending Paladin here either, I think we should look at it's magic healing and get rid of it for a extra way to sustain self or teammate but it's way less then the current magic healing you get from attacks.

Is dark Knight "perfectly fine in dungeons?" yes with current dungeon design it is, would I want dark knight to get more survivability/sustain? yes so we can talk about making mobs hit harder or allowing tanks to pull more, I personally would love slow over time sustain on dark knight as well. (maybe even give oblation a small sustain aspect as that ability is kinda just really boring right now lol).