Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons

[Supersnow845]

What are you even trying to say at this point, do you really not see that bloodwhetting is is destabilising the entire tank healer dynamic, you yourself even said “if they buff the others to WAR’s level they will have to change the content design to counter this” so you obviously understand on some level that bloodwhetting is having a destabilising effect on the game, the presence or lack of UWU needing a healer LB3 really doesn’t change that dynamic

Sure in general they are more likely to buff than nerf but that’s because in the past if x was 5% weaker than y and you buffed x by 7% you didn’t need to nerf it by 2%, you could just buff y by 2%, in this case you are fundamentally changing 2 entire roles (without even consulting the healers BTW), WAR being the best at everything is a problem to me but it’s not the damage that’s the problem, it’s the problem that WAR is affecting 2 entire roles

I’ll be honest I don’t want your theoretical changes to healers to accomodate every tank having WAR’s healing I want to do my job which is healing the tank to keep them alive and when I’m a tank I don’t want to play WAR, it feels bad to impede on the fun of others, your entire perception of this is basically WAR is good WAR is right everyone else should aspire to how fun WAR is

As for your second comment it still seems like you either don’t understand or are wilfully ignoring the fact that I’m agreeing that content would change, it just shouldn’t have to, the entire game shouldn’t bend around WAR

[MikoRemi]

Only because nothing else is being changed at the moment, and I'd love to see that changed. It's not destabilizing, it's just showing what a fun class can be. The presence or lack of UWU fully supports when everyone loves to bring up the TOP moment.

Well DRK and healer's apparently don't wanna consult WAR's on the matter either so I suppose were at an impasse. I would wager healers would love to have more offensive options at least. Even Scholar's has Miasma 2 and Shadowflare as starts, but they could do more with integrating them into heals. Unless you want the possibility of Cure 1 spammers to stick around I guess. Again, this isn't a healer thread anyway, so that coming up is just muddying the waters. WAR being the best is spooky but only because DRK and GNB haven't been brought up to par. Funny too that PLD is never brought up in despite also being a very capable solotank. Especially with the pretty nice cooldown it has in general. I'd give them a break anyway after 3.0 and 4.0 anyway, they've had it rough for a long enough time.

Again you seem to forget that if all tanks had sustain, things would have to be adjusted. Is it that hard to imagine things hitting a little harder to make sustaining a viable option yet not a trivial matter? Also known as...requiring healers to do their healing thing? If that's all you're asking for then that's even easier to fix than I thought.

If you don't understand what I'm saying after all this time though, then here's a very simple version. Catch flies with honey over vinegar. It will go over much better. If you want to continue as you are though, then well see how things go in Dawntrail, but we've had 5 expansions to know how history ends up going for WAR.

Here's hoping GNB and DRK get more defensive viability and general fixes, and DRK not being forced into having a poor mans Inner Release clone. Even they find that a slap in the face, and I'd agree. Also give DRK's the ability to mitigate all damage with all their skills instead of just magic with some. Also Dark Missionary coming earlier would be rightfully nice. Give GNB 25 seconds of No Mercy. Floors open for more.

[Supersnow845]

That’s your idea of a fun class, I for one don’t find being personally immortal in a holy trinity game to be remotely fun especially since I know I’m actively robbing the healer of enjoyment, even ignoring bloodwhetting WAR is by far the most boring tank to me, it’s the WHM of tanks

What evidence do we have in this game that all these magical changes will occur simply because tanks all get the WAR treatment, hell nothing has changed while WAR exists as it is now, you can wave that away as “oh but nothing is happening right NOW” but you know nothing is going to actually change if this happens, all it will do is just make all 4 tanks even more similar and further invalidate the existence of the healer role, and then we will have 5 expansions of useless content because of this change, you have bought up “oh but sasatasha isn’t like how it was in 2.0”, sure, but WAR changes have totally messed up palace, HOH, eureka, even Bozja, bloodwhetting does functionally what one of the most desirable essences in 5.0 does, the skill is totally at odds with the game

But I don’t even know why I’m bothering, at this point it’s obvious that you are arguing with the voices in your own head because you have stated like 5 times “I don’t understand what you are saying” despite directly bringing up and countering what you are saying, I’ve answered you “yeah but things would change if everyone was at WAR’s level” comment like 5 times and every time you just ignore my answer then pretend like I didn’t answer it

[MikoRemi]

Is it me ignoring things or is it you. That's just improper deflection. I bring up your points bit by bit and I just respond is all really.

And what changes do we have that nothing would change if all tanks had sustain? It's really easy to flip stuff around when it's just flimsy. The healer role is only being robbed of enjoyment in the sense of they're boring at the moment with dia>glare>holy>blood lily at the max, which is a shame. Most healers I meet tend to have a sigh of relief seeing a WAR rather than despair.

Hasn't messed up palace, if anything it's made it a little less of an RNG slog with regards to gloom. HoH is a similar deal. Eureka they're hilarious to bring around and are very powerful, but Reaper is also hilarious powerful even without a Eureka weapon. Bozja had White Mages being one of the strongest DPS ever in the entirety of the area second only to Black Mage with the amount of usage they can get out of Flare, did we have Warrior cheese on duels, or RDM cheese? I was there at ground zero so I can tell you it wa s the latter.

Oh attack me for arguing with voices in my head. I only respond when I see bad takes, and even I only have enough stamina for a few at a time. You're the one telling me "What are you even trying to say at this point", not me. I'm being pretty clear here really, but if anyone's not understanding the other here, it's pretty much you. It's also not ignoring your answers when each one is flimsy and gets torn into, it's simply a response.

Again for the topic, mitigation should be indeed balanced, two tanks clearly have something that one doesn't, and the other has...somewhat. And that's not going into how "wonderful" Dark Mind/Dark Missionary are in dungeon pulls let alone how TBN shows up at lvl 70 for some ungodly reason. Fixing those would certainly be a boon.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

snip

Meanwhile over here I'm already c*cking regular bad, DF healer as a GNB/DRK who later wrote ":|" in party chat cause I apparently don't need them with current lv of sustain as a non-WAR.

Why does people want to be a one-man army in an mmo game that emphasizes the holy trinity?

"One job is broken so let's make everything broken, too!"

W i l d

[Supersnow845]

“It’s not destabilising it’s just showing how fun a class can be” isn’t tearing into someone’s responses, it’s having no actual defence of your position other than just wanting WAR to not change

Our evidence that nothing will change is that fact that nothing changed when WAR was hilariously buffed in EW, that isn’t “being held back by DRK” that’s them buffing a class with zero regard to how it changes the content then refusing to fix the problem because they are terrified to need anything, do you honestly expect they will restructure all content and change the design of healers just because WAR doesn’t want to be nerfed, healers can’t even get fixed by begging square for 4 years straight, and think about it, let’s say they committed to a full game wide rebalance, how do you even balance all tanks being functionally immortal for 10 seconds every 30 seconds, if you are just going to up the damage to counter this to the point that bloodwhetting doesn’t feel effective anymore you have just effectively nerfed WAR anyway, just in a really wasteful and roundabout way that messes up the numbers on all the content

WAR is hilariously overpowered in palace and HOH now, it’s totally messed up the leaderboards for the solo runs and trivialised group runs since you have zero incentive to bring any other tank, as for Bozja the other two are strong because of essence abuse; WAR has one of tje most powerful essences built into its kit, this is the third time or so you’ve implied “well just because it can’t do (insert super unrealistic feat) it must not be unbalanced” without considering the implications of having the strength it does as a baseline

That comment about what are you even trying to say was specifically that one random comment you made about “well what about we just do (insert random thing on random class)” as if that really relates to WAR, go back and read that comment, it legit makes no real sense

Mitigation should be balanced I agree and small changes like DRK getting dark mind being Omni reduction is good. That doesn’t change the fact that bloodwhetting needs to be reduced to one heal per GCD and PLD needs a reduction on its magic combo healing potency (I’d half it), so their mitigation remains in tact but their healing is nerfed

[Oizen]

Well to be entirely realistic here, the two scenarios I can see happening are:

-WAR continues to be the favorite child and nothing changes
-More Tank homogenization happens and every tank gets some form of Bloodwhetting, and healers are only played in lower content because the duty finder forces them to be

I don't think they're ever going to nerf their favorite job to spoil, theres really just no precedent for it.

[MikoRemi]

Meanwhile over here I'm already c*cking regular bad, DF healer as a GNB/DRK who later wrote ":|" in party chat cause I apparently don't need them with current lv of sustain as a non-WAR.

Why does people want to be a one-man army in an mmo game that emphasizes the holy trinity?

Interesting to have a DF healer somehow annoyed they don't need to heal you, most are relieved around Aether at least. As a GNB and DRK that's pretty neato too since wall to wall pulls can hurt a bit, but that's just a sign of good tanking. Having healed before, most tanks in general forget what Rampart and Arm's Length is over their other cooldowns.

If you want to put trust into others, I guess DRK and GNB are just fine at the moment since they're more in need of Healer's then WAR and PLD. However having had my normal DF and PF days in Stormblood when we all had actual responsibility within the holy trinity(casters Mana Shifting to healers or using Erase to heal and cleanse a debuff as an OGCD, melee DPS needing to Goad other melee's to regen TP, ranged DPS monitering TP and MP on top of other support buffs, all DPS needing to manage aggro with NIN's Smokescreen or Shadewalker or just Diversion to reduce aggro generation, healers and tanks needing to pull up damage in their own unique ways, and much more), I have little faith in most people. It's not as bad these days since jobs have been made less complicated, but it's a real biter when your healer in Dead Ends can't help but soak in the poison pools and can barely even touch their cooldowns let alone their GCD's, or move out of the bad orange markers. It's especially nice to be able to save a long and grueling POTD/HoH run if something unlucky happens, Eureka to not lose experience as often, and so on.

The trinity is nice when it works, but I would need more faith for the players to do their job generally to be fine with blind trust. Besides, silly tank sustain can't solve the body check mechanics that require most/all of the party, esuna only dooms, and classic LB moments we don't usually get anymore outside of Tank LB3 because Nabriales scared people I guess to have too many Melee LB3 moments. Not enough experiences with Healer LB3 being absolutely required outside of UWU from what I've seen admittedly but that's a whole other thing.

Better to wish for everyone to be good than to have everyone mired in sad though. /shrug

[MikoRemi]

snip

Except it is a valid defense when it's a new bar. If you don't personally find it to be a defense then that's a you problem.

Given the many attempts at other content as well as Yoshi P having his attention divided with FF16, the job balance has been a bit of a sad time for a lot of different jobs. Not exactly a full measurement when it's simply one expansion. I would expect them to fix content going forward as top priority if tanks and healers were changed as drastically as mentioned, but if that doesn't happen then sure it won't. They kinda go hand in hand if you can't tell.

I don't really know a healer with a voice as strong as Xenos or MrHappy, but if we ever got one I'd be happy if healers got to experience a nicer direction. I know plenty are as I've stated; bored of spamming glare all day and want more options.

Balancing immortality for 10 seconds? Sounding like the average invuln timer...oh wait you're talking about sustainability. Maybe actually strong busters where you need to properly use all your tools including sustain? Or just attacks in general? And it's not a nerf so much as WAR would have to consider healing as more of a normal tool. That way you get your beloved healing like you want. I'm advocating for that adjustment as is because that way healers stay relevant, because that's being nice.

I've gone into plenty of POTD/HoH with various classes, all most people care about is who can fill a slot and bring good aetherpool and not screw the party. I've never had a tank denied for not being a WAR, we just want our clears and sacks. Leaderboard people are their own beast, but at least everyone can do leaderboards now rather than the old days of primarily(if not exclusively) Red Mage in Stormblood with solos in POTD, so I fail to see how that's any more messed up. And no, casters and healers aren't only essence abuse, it's skills like Chainspell and Cleric stance alone that can make them a force not even accounting essences, but also the majority of enemies being weak to magic helps. WHM and BLM can also use shields which can be a cutting edge for pure optimizing, whether you choose to believe it or not. WAR is about as strong as any other tank in that regard because basic Bloodsucker essence as a whole makes things a breeze as a tank. You want to say WAR is hilariously overpowered yet ignore other classes that are also legit powerful in Eureka/Bozja. Don't even bring up no incentive to bring other classes in either, I've been around as a RDM/MCH/BLM before, I know what class lockouts actually look like, but all it tells me is saving me time from a grief party.

Part 1 because it's impossible to shorten at this point.

[MikoRemi]

Mind telling me where I said "well what about we just do (insert random thing on random class)", CTRL F isn't bringing it up, or I didn't just say it so simply. If you want to bring healer's into a tank mix, then it's fair game I can talk about other classes then. I'm quite specific and it's just an annoyance to have to go backwards. I'm at least bringing up specific points so it's not hard to look back as a courtesy. If you're talking about me mentioning other tanks for buffing, that's because I do want DRK and GNB to be in a better place actually. If it's healers, then I want them to be more fun. They must be related if people keep bringing up WAR along with them.

Or the healing can remain because it's actually fun, and others should join the party. PLD's were already sad Clemency was basically "useless" for being a full dps loss so they got compensation. It's great, now they can still stay alive without making pulls a pain. /shrug

Part 2 final.