2 minute meta: Rework or Remove?

[Derio]

I think removing the raid buffs would completely homonogize jobs even more. However I do want them removed and replaced with something else. The biggest problem is if you die or do anything wrong in the 2 minute meta we have right now you are completely thrown out of line with rotation and your damage tanks tremendously.

I hope they remove it. But unless they have been working on it since 6.0 we can expect the same.

[Ggwppino]

The biggest problem is if you die or do anything wrong in the 2 minute meta we have right now you are completely thrown out of line with rotation and your damage tanks tremendously.

Honestly, I don't find this a problem.
I don't consider it a significant problem, just don't die (ez lol).
The 2 minute meta (leaving aside the buffs) killed all those jobs that previously did damage in the long run. The 2 minute meta with bursts pretty much killed the stats to be distributed. But above all the 2-minute meta killed hypothetical ideas to keep the jobs very different from each other, even distributing the damage in different time windows: perhaps with jobs that work with micro burst windows following certain requirements, or jobs that would could work by keeping various dots up on the boss (taking poles apart examples). By the 2 minute mark they have put themselves in the position that all jobs are structured the same way.



For the buffs, however, I would remove them, or rather, redistribute them because as they exist now they are superfluous for the depth of the game due to how trivial they are: press the button every 120 seconds and the party will have x% more damage (or another way to say that it will have x% more damage). wow. currently everyone has buffs but most aren't
truly an integral part of the core of the work, they add nothing effective, especially because we are fed by the designers.
There should be some buffing-based classes emphasizing buffing and its optimal use. The others simply should not have this task because it is not in their essence. Their job is to vomit damage/do the things of their role that they cover and to put those who buff in the most optimal situation possible to do more global rdps for the clear.

[Kalaam]

Without the need to align so many things it would leave room for more varied rotations that don't rely on bursting all at the same time to capitalize on common buffs.
Though of course fight design has to account for that too.

[ZiraZ]

I think removing the raid buffs would completely homonogize jobs even more. However I do want them removed and replaced with something else. The biggest problem is if you die or do anything wrong in the 2 minute meta we have right now you are completely thrown out of line with rotation and your damage tanks tremendously.

I hope they remove it. But unless they have been working on it since 6.0 we can expect the same.

What kind of magical system will allow dying to not completely destroy your rotation?
It was the same with 3mins, it will be the same with any system that doesn't turn combat into lvl 50 levels of complexity which I guess is what some people want from this thread? 3 buttons and a 1 min CD, repeat?


Can I get an in-depth and real example of these magical varied rotations that will fix everything?

[Shurrikhan]

Can I get an in-depth and real example of these magical varied rotations that will fix everything?

^

"Literal nothingness would taste more flavorful than having this burger for the umpteenth time. Just imagine what new flavors could fill our mouths instead."

/until_an_actual_substitution_is_given_I'd_imagine_nothing_would_taste_like_nothing

[Rithy255]

Without the need to align so many things it would leave room for more varied rotations that don't rely on bursting all at the same time to capitalize on common buffs.
Though of course fight design has to account for that too.

Exactly the game is literally better without raid buffs design wise it would be way more free and have actually way more possibilities.
Some buffs can stay like the ones you mentioned but in general I don't think 120 raidwide buffs add anything to the game they just take away from the game at this point.

[mallleable]

Removing raid buffs is an all or nothing solution that does not actually fix this problem. Let's take NIN for example. Ninja's rotation would barely change if Mug were to be reworked be a generic attack, and that any potential potency that it would provide as a raid buff were to be converted into raw potency, and spread out across the rest of its attacks. Ninja's rotation will still revolve around building gauge, and saving cooldowns for Trick Attack windows. A complaint that I hear often about Ninja is that its rotation is kinda boring until Trick Attack windows. Jobs like GNB, and DRK have the same rotational goals as NIN, and they don't have raid buffs, and they receive similar complaints as well. So if we want to completely remove the playstyle of 'do nothing until a buff window' then all damage increasing buffs would have to be removed including self buffs like Trick Attack, and No Mercy, and single target buffs like AST cards or DNC's Closed Position. This playstyle would persist even if bursts, and buffs were varied because it just moves the goal, and not the process to get there.

I don't hate the standardization of buffs, and bursts, even as someone who tackles high end duties, but I agree that burst focused damage profiles, and unsatisfactory jobfeel are problems that are intertwined, and need to be resolved. I think most of the solution actually lies in improving filler damage of most jobs. Filler damage takes up the majority of the moment to moment gameplay of a job's rotation. I think jobs will feel a lot better if complexity, and potency were more evenly distributed instead of being confined to burst phases. Jobs need fun valleys, and not just fun peaks. I think such changes would be possible even with homogenized raid buffs. To quote Doom composer Mick Gordon "Change the process to change the outcome." I guess this puts me on team rework. lol

[Kalaam]

Love how when someone points out a problem you guys just expect them to just be full on professional game designers, and not propose anything or entertain the idea. You just want to say "no".

[ZiraZ]

Love how when someone points out a problem you guys just expect them to just be full on professional game designers, and not propose anything or entertain the idea. You just want to say "no".

Yes I for sure will say no to ANYTHING that revolves around removing something blindly just to be replaced by IOU magical "FIXES everything I swear"™ systems
All you've said so far is "raid buff man bad!" "raid buff man bad!" "raid buff man bad!" on repeat

[Kalaam]

There does need to be something to allow more breathing room outside of that 120s cycle, options are plentiful but none will satisfy everyone. I just hope something is done because this is making things very stale.