2 minute meta: Rework or Remove?

[SargeTheSeagull]

Yes, it's another 2 minute raid buff thread. This horse has been beaten to death but I got a new whacking stick so why not. Someone brought this up on the xivdiscussion subreddit and it got my noggin joggin'. Let's say the devs leave this to a community vote. In 7.0 we get two options:
1. Raid buffs are put back on the cooldowns they had before EW.
2. Raid buffs are entirely removed. Anything that increases how much damage your party members deal, be it a buff on them or a debuff on the enemy, is gone.

Which would you pick and why?

[SargeTheSeagull]

For me, I'd go option 2. As far as I can tell there are really only three jobs whose fantasy is built around buffing allies (DNC, BRD, SCH) and the whole "buff allies" thing has been spread to so many jobs that it seems to have lost all thematic punch. I mean if I were a FF fan (who hadn't played 14) and were asked "name a job who's all about buffing allies" i probably wouldn't say ninja or dragoon or red mage. Beyond that, it also seems like the issue isn't so much the timing of raid buffs but more the volume of them. If there were only two or three in the game total then screwing up a buff window wouldn't be such a big deal. On top of that it also seems like raid buffs are stifling job design more than aiding it. You can't really have a job without a burst window anymore and though a lot of people like that, i don't think the point of having multiple classes in an MMO is so you can pick your favorite VFX to see every two minutes.

[Valence]

For me, I'd go option 2. As far as I can tell there are really only three jobs whose fantasy is built around buffing allies (DNC, BRD, SCH) and the whole "buff allies" thing has been spread to so many jobs that it seems to have lost all thematic punch. I mean if I were a FF fan (who hadn't played 14) and were asked "name a job who's all about buffing allies" i probably wouldn't say ninja or dragoon or red mage. Beyond that, it also seems like the issue isn't so much the timing of raid buffs but more the volume of them. If there were only two or three in the game total then screwing up a buff window wouldn't be such a big deal. On top of that it also seems like raid buffs are stifling job design more than aiding it. You can't really have a job without a burst window anymore and though a lot of people like that, i don't think the point of having multiple classes in an MMO is so you can pick your favorite VFX to see every two minutes.

So, if I get it correctly, because you feel it's too punishing to miss a buff, or play within those, or align too many jobs having them, which can be valid arguments, you want to just nuke the whole concept instead of reworking or adjusting it? Do you work for SE? Because it kinda feels like you're advocating for what they've been doing since ShB with the removal of things with no real addition or compensation behind...

I really don't see the problem with buffs, because frankly them being on 2min timers or staggered all around is a fake debate on what actually matters to my eyes (mechanical intricacy), but I could definitely remove all the little buffs that are just "press that button on cooldown", and focus on working on more intricate ones on the actual buffing jobs (DNC, BRD, and yes MCH), which would probably fix/address rphys's identity crisis in the process.

Bring back stuff like Foe Requiem and buffs that are actually more than just "press this every 2min kthx". Radiant Finale went in the right direction, but it still remains a fire and forget button unfortunately. But even if you still want to use those buffs at certain specific intervals, it's already something if they require some manner of class kit interaction to build up and activate.


Edit: I actually like the idea of having adjustable buff gauges for a more restricted amount of buffing jobs (all of rphys notably), which would for example allow casting the buff at half gauge or less, but casting it at full gauge would obviously bring bigger buffs. You know which gauge worked very well for that, was flexible on demand, and offered tactical play and team coordination? The... MP bar on bard for Requiem. Make us use our MP again ffs, else why do we even have those bars?

[TheDustyOne]

Personally, any party-wide damage increases should either be removed outright, maintained consistently throughout the rotation (like Bard songs currently), or put back on staggered timers. If we really want to have ally buffs as a form of utility on jobs that aren't typically support focused, they should be limited to a single ally instead.

I don't mind the co-ordinated bursts, I just hate how much it focuses on the 2 minute burst in particular, to the point that all jobs have to be designed around it or be deemed too weak. I didn't mind having to think about the Ninja using their Trick Attack every minute, it gives me something to think about on jobs with pooled resources. I don't mind that we had smaller bursts on odd minutes, and then a big burst again at 6 minutes, it meant that jobs with a steadier damage output like old PLD still had a place in the party and could take advantage of all buff windows compared to old Warrior who couldn't always use IR on Trick windows. I do mind that it's all on the 2 minute mark and if you mess up, your damage is now desynced from the rest of the party whether you like it or not. What was thought to be something more accessible, turned out to be extra punishing while simultaneously removing depth from party compositions.

I'd be fine with either reworking raid buffs, or near-total removal (keep a couple on the support focused jobs), but I don't want to keep the current raid buff design.

[Connor]

I feel like option 2 would just cause more problems than solve them. Like what happens to Bard and Dancer if they can’t buff the party? Physical ranged can’t have dps close to casters because of ‘balance’, but if they stay as they are but with no buffs they’d be kinda useless. Then there’s the whole thing with mobility no longer being a role advantage, as evidenced by Summoner. If they boost physical ranged damage to be on par with casters though then they just cancel them out.

They could just have every job do the same damage I guess, but it’d be a bit unfair for the people who do enjoy supporting the party to just completely lose to access to it on every job. Plus it would make dps feel even more homogenised if they all reached the goal of ‘kill enemy’ the same way. Part of what makes dps enjoyable to me is having the choice of a selfish dps like Black Mage or Samurai, something more ‘middle of the ground’ like Dragoon or Ninja, or something more support oriented like Bard or Dancer.

That said I do agree that their ‘raid buff homogenisation’ has gotten way out of hand, and the ‘2-min meta’ has made it all the more apparent. Plus, it’s just kinda weird that practically everyone has a raid buff now lol. I wouldn’t be surprised if Black Mage and Samurai get ones in Dawntrail.
Personally I think it makes more sense to cull the majority of current ‘raid buffs’ but with the exception of certain skills or mechanics that are central to the job like Bard’s song buffs or Dance Partner / Technical Finish. And of course things like Chain Stratagem or Astrologian’s cards. There is of course the issue of ‘but then you always need those jobs’ , but that’s pretty much already happens because of 1% party buff anyway. It’s not like people are generally taking like, X4 melee or X4 ranged to raids. I don’t think it’s too out there to expect a party to have 2X melee, 1 caster and 1 ranged.

Ultimately I wouldn’t be sure about option 1, but I definitely wouldn’t choose 2 personally. But I would say that definitely agree that something needs to change regardless.
As an aside, I’m curious whether people feel the same about ‘non-damage raid buffs’. They’re not as consequential, but they have become fairly ubiquitous lol

[Reimmi]

I feel like option 2 would just cause more problems than solve them. Like what happens to Bard and Dancer if they can’t buff the party? Physical ranged can’t have dps close to casters because of ‘balance’, but if they stay as they are but with no buffs they’d be kinda useless. Then there’s the whole thing with mobility no longer being a role advantage, as evidenced by Summoner. If they boost physical ranged damage to be on par with casters though then they just cancel them out.

They could just have every job do the same damage I guess, but it’d be a bit unfair for the people who do enjoy supporting the party to just completely lose to access to it on every job. Plus it would make dps feel even more homogenised if they all reached the goal of ‘kill enemy’ the same way. Part of what makes dps enjoyable to me is having the choice of a selfish dps like Black Mage or Samurai, something more ‘middle of the ground’ like Dragoon or Ninja, or something more support oriented like Bard or Dancer.

That said I do agree that their ‘raid buff homogenisation’ has gotten way out of hand, and the ‘2-min meta’ has made it all the more apparent. Plus, it’s just kinda weird that practically everyone has a raid buff now lol. I wouldn’t be surprised if Black Mage and Samurai get ones in Dawntrail.
Personally I think it makes more sense to cull the majority of current ‘raid buffs’ but with the exception of certain skills or mechanics that are central to the job like Bard’s song buffs or Dance Partner / Technical Finish. And of course things like Chain Stratagem or Astrologian’s cards. There is of course the issue of ‘but then you always need those jobs’ , but that’s pretty much already happens because of 1% party buff anyway. It’s not like people are generally taking like, X4 melee or X4 ranged to raids. I don’t think it’s too out there to expect a party to have 2X melee, 1 caster and 1 ranged.

Ultimately I wouldn’t be sure about option 1, but I definitely wouldn’t choose 2 personally. But I would say that definitely agree that something needs to change regardless.
As an aside, I’m curious whether people feel the same about ‘non-damage raid buffs’. They’re not as consequential, but they have become fairly ubiquitous lol

I feel like the best compromise is give bard/mch the pvp fillers, where you move at 50% speed while casting them. Not gun/bow mage like hw, but not full mobility either.
idk about dancer though. I think before endwalker they had a good gimmick of having to go into melee to do their aoe procs, putting them in danger.

Unless fight design changes the mobility ranged dps get doesn't really matter anyway. But if the devs really see it as a boon then that should be good enough to qualify ranged physical for being on equal terms with casters i think

[Shurrikhan]

I feel like the best compromise is give bard/mch the pvp fillers, where you move at 50% speed while casting them. Not gun/bow mage like hw, but not full mobility either.

A forced, harder to cancel heavy is actually more likely to get you killed than the HW cast times despite having about the same overall movement speed reduction...

[Reimmi]

A forced, harder to cancel heavy is actually more likely to get you killed than the HW cast times despite having about the same overall movement speed reduction...

True, i dont think either is necessary tbh considering summoner lol

[Shurrikhan]

Let's say the devs leave this to a community vote. In 7.0 we get two options:
1. Raid buffs are put back on the cooldowns they had before EW.
2. Raid buffs are entirely removed. Anything that increases how much damage your party members deal, be it a buff on them or a debuff on the enemy, is gone.

Which would you pick and why?

I'd take the first option. I like synchronizing buffs. I like wanting to be cognizant of those upcoming buffs' timings. I like the cumulative advantage of having no deaths and no desync-causing freakouts (in a way that extends beyond just Weakness/BoD and lost GCDs).

The current state just feels a little too all-or-nothing, is all, such that I really couldn't give a damn about my banking resources except X seconds before each raid burst unless I have an AST in my party and I'm (likely to be seen as) the lead dps of my type (Melee or Ranged).

That said, if it were on offer, I certainly wouldn't pass up a default UI raidbuffs-CD-slider bar or the like that'd make tracking those upcoming raidbuffs a little easier for everyone so that we don't fall back on the excuse that it's "just too hard" to track CDs separately of 60, 90, 120, and 150 seconds. (And maybe also the ability to further filter buff types onto however many status effect bars we choose.)

[Lyth]

Both of these are bad options.

The system that we had previously meant that not all jobs synchronized with buff timings equally well, resulting in rDPS disparities. Some jobs like NIN were perennial picks, because a 1 minute buff aligns with pretty much everything. It also meant that your buff windows could be just free dps if they didn't align with mechanic checks.

Removing buffs entirely simplifies gameplay even further, and is essentially a non-option. I'm not sure why this was framed as a choice.

I think a better question is whether burst should be occurring around two minute cycles, or whether that cycle should be shorter or longer. Shorter cycles (i.e. 1 minute) lends itself better to more intensive gameplay and mechanic checks. Longer cycles (i.e. two or three minute) allow us to have job designs that are less timer-driven and allow for a greater degree of actual resource management. One thing that fits in with this is the question of whether you can 'store' your one minute mini-burst to add to the end of your big burst window under certain conditions. P8S was a fight which rewarded this type of thing. You can only do this if gauges are designed appropriately, with the capacity to store additional resources than you need for performing your standard rotation.