Square Enix should retire the relic quests with Endwalker

[Jojoya]

I disagree, after all, during base game + 3 expansions they made the relic weapon as a goal for people who enjoy a good grind. If all of the sudden they decide to no longer make that content it does leave people in the air, and for what? For people who barely play the game to begin with? They have a right to ask why they cut this content out of the expansion.

You make it sound like this is just the way things are and we just gotta accept it. What they did was make the relic into the laziest content possible, removing any gameplay elements and instead exchanging it for watching cutscenes.

This idea that glamours and skins are both worthless and wanting to be entitled to them because people barely play confuses me. The journey to get your relic weapon was always the point of the relic, and this time we skipped the journey entirely to the reward.

The change most likely is because they're trying to change what the game is.

Go back to the Live Letter with the 10 year Roadmap (think it was 68?). They don't want the game to be considered a MMORPG anymore because that has deterred many of the long time Final Fantasy fans from picking the game up. They want the game to be considered a RPG that can be played alone or with friends.

That means updating some of the more popular features to be friendlier to solo players while leaving group play intact. Relics appear to be one of the conversion tests. In the past, there would be no way to get a relic weapon at the intended level solo. By changing what was needed to Causality, which does have a couple of solo sources (Variant, level 90 treasure maps though the player would have to skip a portal if spawned) in addition to all the group content, a solo player could still earn their relic. It would be really slow but it could be done.

As I said, personally I don't agree with all the changes they're making but I'll adapt or move on. The move from MMORPG to RPG that is solo or with friends is one of them. It's a move that has an unpredictable outcome for the sake of people who, as you said, aren't even playing the game. Considering how much effort they've put into making content more solo friendly, it's unlikely they're going to revert the changes. I can waste energy fighting a change I'm not certain will have a neutral or positive effect on the game experience, or I can walk into it with an open mind to see what happens. I don't see this as a battle worth fighting. SE is going to do what they want to do and only reconsider if they start losing more players than they gain.

The value of glamour and other cosmetics is subjective to the individual player. You say that to you, the journey was the point. Would you have gone on that journey without relic weapons being a reward? That's what I did with Castle in the Sky. Expert crafting intrigued me and I wanted a long term goal to work towards. The mount was not my objective and the only time I use it is when I get Aswang as my SB weekly B rank (or when I'm chasing it around the Steppe to map Orghana) because I find it amusing to hunt Aswang while riding Aswang. If it wasn't for that coincidence, I wouldn't use it at all.

If we want a journey to experience, we do have some small ability to create them for ourselves even though this isn't a sandbox. I've got a friend who sets restrictions on himself every time he starts a new character. Maybe he's doing it semi-hardcore (no dying due to his own mistake), maybe he's RP walking everywhere and refusing to use teleports unless unavoidable, maybe he's doing it without any XP buffs outside of those he can't control. He's doing it for the fun of a different journey.

SE gave us all the chance to create our own journeys for this relic series depending on our personal preferences and it seems like almost everyone ignored the opportunity in favor of efficiency or some other excuse. So it goes.

[TomsYoungerBro]

The change most likely is because they're trying to change what the game is.

Go back to the Live Letter with the 10 year Roadmap (think it was 68?). They don't want the game to be considered a MMORPG anymore because that has deterred many of the long time Final Fantasy fans from picking the game up. They want the game to be considered a RPG that can be played alone or with friends.

The relic being a grind makes it an MMO? Did you seriously type this? For FINAL FANTASY of all things that has some considerable grinds within their own single player RPG games?

[Atelier-Bagur]

Grinding stopped being a thing after FFIII my dud. If we're talking about required grinding to progress.

[Absimiliard]

Grinding stopped being a thing after FFIII my dud. If we're talking about required grinding to progress.

FFXI would like a word with you. Many have been removed or at least toned way down now, but that game had some of the most grueling grinds I've ever seen in an MMO. Leveling was a grind, gearing was a grind, even raising your level cap could become a grind if you weren't lucky enough to chain crit Maat in your opening volley.

[RitsukoSonoda]

FFXI would like a word with you. Many have been removed or at least toned way down now, but that game had some of the most grueling grinds I've ever seen in an MMO. Leveling was a grind, gearing was a grind, even raising your level cap could become a grind if you weren't lucky enough to chain crit Maat in your opening volley.

I completed a few of those along with the Aht Urgan mythics back in those days. The time commitment decreased dramatically when you have enough gil to just simply buy all the ancient currency and alexandrites needed from ppl's personal bazaars.

The thing I found most humorous in FFXI though was the amount of ways the game essentially just handed gil out to players, yet most players never did the activities tied to those income sources. Then complained about always being broke while obsessing over rare NM and HNM drops.

Leveling felt like a grind on the first job taken to cap. Which originally was 50. They then increased it a few times during The Rise of Zilart until settling on 75 for quite a few years. With better knowledge of the game and also better gear, leveling jobs after that first one was quite a bit easier and quicker. And I quite enjoyed sitting in towns wearing my Maat's Cap lol. His fight was kind of interesting in that it had 2 win triggers when doing it to increase your level cap. The first was to just KO him, The other was dependent on which job you were facing him as. However it appeared doing the rematches later with other jobs to eventually claim his hat only had the option of knocking his HP down.

However in response to the person you replied to, grinding has been present in FF games after 3. FF5 had a job system as well which encouraged grinding to level multiple jobs on characters to cross slot skills. FF6 had grinding to learn magic from Magicite, FF7 was materia and limit break upgrades, FF8 i don't think counts since you basically just needed to draw stacks of magic charges out then link them and beat the game at like lv 4, FF9 had skill learning from gear pieces which had to be found or purchased, 10 had the sphere grid system. Sure you could skip the grinds I mentioned on those titles, however doing so would just make the game exponentially harder for you or in some cases might turn a normal boss fight into a massive progression wall.

[Nebelheim]

Grinding stopped being a thing after FFIII my dud. If we're talking about required grinding to progress.

You probably haven't played ff11 during the level 75 cap era that had so much grind it took months/years to get relics and various other endgame weapons/gear or even just to get to lvl 75. It could take over a year just to get a base relic from dynamis let alone the long process for each upgrade.

[Jojoya]

The relic being a grind makes it an MMO? Did you seriously type this? For FINAL FANTASY of all things that has some considerable grinds within their own single player RPG games?

Are you seriously so tunnel focused on relics as to think it's the entire picture instead of a single piece of it?

The other poster was wondering why SE thought the change to the relic system was needed. I provided a guess on my part that could explain it - it's one of many changes being made to make the game more solo friendly. Assuming nothing changes in 6.5, this will be the first relic that players could complete entirely solo during the same expansion the relic was introduced if they desired.

Is that a coincidence or was it intentionally planned that way? The most we can do is speculate.

It's not the only thing that has been changed and there are likely more changes yet to come.

Of course there is more to what makes a MMO a MMO but you're ignoring what YoshiP said during the Roadmap Live Letter - they do not want this game to be considered a MMO in the future. There are already some players that don't consider this to be a MMO because so much of it can be done solo.

If this game is being made so solo friendly that they are ripping out game staples to make them even more solo friendly (because none of the on patch relics required anything that wasn’t solo friendly unless you are going to count the roulettes which barely count) why am I still even paying a subscription

There are 14 mainline non MMO FF games and however many spin-offs and connections if I wanted a single player game I’d play one of those, what’s the point of having the design (and all the downsides that come from it) of an MMO if the game isn’t going to actually be an MMO, no matter how solo friendly it is MMO’s have downsides, no matter how good 14’s story is it will always be worse than playing a tight single player game that was designed that way

Which are some good questions to ponder.

Why should players who came here to play a MMO continue to subscribe if they're remaking the game for the sake of Final Fantasy players that want a solo game?

Can SE successfully blend the elements of solo and multiplayer into the game to satisfy both types of players?

For now I'm still enjoying the game and so I'm willing to wait things out a while to see what happens. I also can understand why some would choose to unsub at this point.

That wasn’t my point

I’m not asking why i choose to pay a subscription based on how much I enjoy the game, im asking what’s the point of an online subscription model when we are just getting functionally solo content anyway, make the patches cheap add ons to the expansion DLC’s and you are functionally in the same position

If you're talking about the cost perspective, I suppose that's going to depend on how many a player is already used to paying on their other games. $15/mo isn't that much compared to what some pay monthly on F2P cash shops, gacha lootboxes or additional DLCs in some cases.

It's on the individual player to determine if they're getting appropriate value for their money.

[TomsYoungerBro]

Are you seriously so tunnel focused on relics as to think it's the entire picture instead of a single piece of it?

And are you seriously so hard-pressed to defend this lazy relic change that you are willing to throw every straw man in the book to tie this to their future design philosophy? I would hardly call doing over 100+ of the same variant dungeon "solo friendly" when there are far better options if you just queue up duty finder lmao

[PintyMcEars]

And are you seriously so hard-pressed to defend this lazy relic change that you are willing to throw every straw man in the book to tie this to their future design philosophy? I would hardly call doing over 100+ of the same variant dungeon "solo friendly" when there are far better options if you just queue up duty finder lmao

The lack of awareness is delicious...

[Jojoya]

And are you seriously so hard-pressed to defend this lazy relic change that you are willing to throw every straw man in the book to tie this to their future design philosophy? I would hardly call doing over 100+ of the same variant dungeon "solo friendly" when there are far better options if you just queue up duty finder lmao

I'm stating the information that SE has given us and my speculation about how that information relates to the recent changes in the game such as the relic for this expansion.

That is not a defense. If you would bother reading would know that I'm not happy with some of the changes they're making. I am willing to wait to see how things turn out, though.

Making content solo friendly does not mean that content will be equally as efficient whether solo or playing in a group. They're already told us that their intent with Duty Support is to leave group play more efficient while giving those who do not wish to play with others. The relic change seems to be the same thing. As you point out, having to do 100 Variant runs for a relic is not going to be as efficient as running roulettes or other content in Duty Finder. It doesn't change that it does make it possible to obtain a relic without joining any parties. That technically makes it "solo friendly" compared to past relic grinds where you weren't going to be able to get your relic same expansion without joining in parties with other players. Even now, can you imagine trying to get one of the SB or ShB relics while being the only player in the exploration zone instance?

Now here is a defense: in the long run, it is SE's game and they can do with it what they want. They don't answer to the players. They answer to their shareholders.

It's up to the individual player to decide if the game is worth their continued subscription.