Very minor sage idea

[ForsakenRoe]

I'd go for both, eg if we imagine the Addersgall gauge as a 0-100 gauge, we could build 1 per second, and also generate X amount for certain attacks. Maybe Dosis gives 1, DOTDosis gives 1 per tick, Phlegma gives 10, etc. Or using the current gauge, each attack gives 'an extra X seconds' to the charging speed, so it builds over time as it does now, but can be accelerated by doing your rotation. People suggest a Water skill for WHM to 'speed the Lily charge timer' quite often, this would be basically that

There's room for both, I think, as Kardia management would allow the SGE to stabilize the party while building their Addersgall, and the Addersgall would cover the gaps where Kardia is not enough to keep up (or the SGE runs low on MP and needs to use MP neutral things to stay out of the dryzone). Of course, that would require SE to have some amount of confidence in their players being competent. Again, this kind of thing, with it's 'higher chance of punishment if things go wrong', would be completely fine if the 'panic heal' GCDs like Prognosis cost 0 MP

As for the comparison of 'bloodbath for ally' vs 'builder-spender', Addersgall already IS a builder-spender, of the worst kind: one where we have zero control over the rate we build at. Instead, the only 'builder' we have access to is a 90s CD (Rhizomata), or just waiting. Having more agency over how quickly we replenish our resources would feel a lot better, even if it works out to be a wash because of balancing, it would give the illusion of 'I have more control of my resource generation'

If anything's making Kardia feel irrelevant/weak, it's not the Galls, it's the random 'free CD' stuff like Haima and Physis. Like, Physis could have been 'spread Kardia to allies, make Kardia AOE for X shots', but nope, gotta have 'not Whispering Dawn'

[ty_taurus]

I'd go for both, eg if we imagine the Addersgall gauge as a 0-100 gauge, we could build 1 per second, and also generate X amount for certain attacks. Maybe Dosis gives 1, DOTDosis gives 1 per tick, Phlegma gives 10, etc. Or using the current gauge, each attack gives 'an extra X seconds' to the charging speed, so it builds over time as it does now, but can be accelerated by doing your rotation. People suggest a Water skill for WHM to 'speed the Lily charge timer' quite often, this would be basically that

There's room for both, I think, as Kardia management would allow the SGE to stabilize the party while building their Addersgall, and the Addersgall would cover the gaps where Kardia is not enough to keep up (or the SGE runs low on MP and needs to use MP neutral things to stay out of the dryzone). Of course, that would require SE to have some amount of confidence in their players being competent. Again, this kind of thing, with it's 'higher chance of punishment if things go wrong', would be completely fine if the 'panic heal' GCDs like Prognosis cost 0 MP

As for the comparison of 'bloodbath for ally' vs 'builder-spender', Addersgall already IS a builder-spender, of the worst kind: one where we have zero control over the rate we build at. Instead, the only 'builder' we have access to is a 90s CD (Rhizomata), or just waiting. Having more agency over how quickly we replenish our resources would feel a lot better, even if it works out to be a wash because of balancing, it would give the illusion of 'I have more control of my resource generation'

If anything's making Kardia feel irrelevant/weak, it's not the Galls, it's the random 'free CD' stuff like Haima and Physis. Like, Physis could have been 'spread Kardia to allies, make Kardia AOE for X shots', but nope, gotta have 'not Whispering Dawn'

I'm not sure how I feel about the concept as a whole, but I don't dislike it on principle. Like most things, it of course depends on the execution. I slightly alluded to it in the other thread in that I don't like the 'over time' aspect of naturally generating it. I'd rather fully commit to it being generated as you attack. In that way, it rewards uptime, and while that can potentially be more punishing to a degree, it's not like Sage wouldn't have its standard heals, which if we follow the logic discussed there as well, whether from my specific build or otherwise, creates a secure safety net regardless of performance and goes back into what I was saying about uptime vs basic healing requirements. As long as you can rely on standard healing quickly, cheaply, and effectively to catch you during stressful encounters, making your ability to manage DPS uptime through skill expression of some sort is, I believe, a really healthy way to create an environment where all skill levels of healers can prosper. DPS uptime is not needed in most content, and even in content where it is, perfection certainly isn't required either.

[Aravell]

In my opinion, you can actually have both an interesting damage kit interaction and also interesting Kardia interactions, the key is interplay within the kit.

Let's say doing damage builds the addersgall gauge, then let's remove stuff like Druochole and Ixochole, instead, let's say the addersgall gauge is now used to augment Kardia in various ways. That creates interplay between doing damage and manipulating Kardia. Now let's say you have a damage spell equivalent in potency to your filler that converts 1 addersgall into an addersting, that then ties the addersgall gauge back into the damage kit.

You can build interactions that tie the whole kit together with some tweaking here and there, if only the dev team had the imagination to make something beautiful again.

[IceBlueNinja]

While I agree with trying to make kardia more interesting, I rather them NOT touch the sages current addergall system do to how useful it is and I rather not type on why its so useful or need to point out how powerful sage healing kit is to begin with. At the end of the day kardia and the fairy should just be removed out of the game cost honestly am not sure why people look at kardia/fairy as the core kit of sage/sch, I feel its more the aetherflow/addergall system that makes their core kit which is crazy since it should be the other way I agree.

Honestly Kardia and Fairy IMO amma go as far as to say its just a training wheel tool and some what encourages lazy game play and biggest examples is dungeons like satasha/tam tam and what not. Its only starting at lvl 50+ where damage climbs you no longer can depend on the hand holding of kardia and fairy to do your job of healing. I would not even care if kardia and fairy gets removed because why do we have this regen/shield spilt yet sage/sch has a passive free ticking regen via kardia and fairy, it makes single regen and aspected benefic spells at times seem so redundant IMO and again it goes back to why it seems as though the pure healers do very little to no heals and depends on their sage/sch to do it all

[ForsakenRoe]

I'm not sure how I feel about the concept as a whole, but I don't dislike it on principle.

Yeh, I'd see it as like, Kardia augmentation gameplay would be like the fairy stuff on SCH (instead of haima/physis), and Addersgall tools are like Aetherflow. If you were to have only one, you'd have WHM, basically: just Lily heals, nothing else. I wouldn't want SGE to be like that

For the concern of 'constant trickle Kardia kinda sucks', I don't think it's too big a problem. As long as the augmentation based gameplay makes it feel strong, it having a default weak mode shouldn't be a problem. Could nerf it's potencies and make the augments stronger if it's needed for balance. Unless you meant 'only generate Addersgall from attacking', instead of over time with damage speeding it up, in which case, I'd also say that but I'm thinking about how you'd have certain sections where you need mit from the Addersgalls, but the boss is not targetable to recharge them (like High Concept, or P9S/P12S's limit cuts). The 'over time' guarantees that Jimmy NoThumbs would have at least a certain amount of Galls coming in (eg enough to cover the mit requirements of the fight), but players who are trying to optimize would find their Gall economy to be stronger (cos they're doing damage to get more), meaning less GCDs are required to cover the gaps, which means more damage, which means more Galls, etc. It'd have diminishing returns as you have less and less GCDs to remove from the fight, but I think that might be a good thing: the first steps someone takes to having less GCDs used, are the ones with the biggest impact on GCD count

I'm trying to imagine how you'd do something like Harrowing Hell, where you'd be burning everything you've stockpiled. It'd involve a lot of doubleweaves, I'd expect, blending both the Kardia augment and Addersgall spender sides of the kit. I also wonder if having a 1s CD on Indom/Ixochole would be considered OP, considering they're gated by Aetherflow/Addersgall. They're basically 'AOE Lustrate' anyway, and the Mit (Soil/Kera) heals for more than them anyway. I guess being able to instantly blast out 1200p by dumping 3 Addersgall would steal the Pure healer's job forever, though

In my opinion, you can actually have both an interesting damage kit interaction and also interesting Kardia interactions, the key is interplay within the kit.

Let's say doing damage builds the addersgall gauge, then let's remove stuff like Druochole and Ixochole, instead, let's say the addersgall gauge is now used to augment Kardia in various ways. That creates interplay between doing damage and manipulating Kardia. Now let's say you have a damage spell equivalent in potency to your filler that converts 1 addersgall into an addersting, that then ties the addersgall gauge back into the damage kit.

Oh, I did it with the boring CDs that already 'augment things but not very well'. That is, Krasis, Soteria and Zoe. We use Krasis and Soteria together most of the time, and while 'eghhhh' feeling for that reason (And because tanks are so self-healy), I have to admit the actual healing they do together does feel pretty cool. So, aiming for gameplay centered around doing that, and being able to sustain the party by spreading the healing to everyone, would feel very cool (I hope) and be the goal. Zoe only ever gets used for two things, Pneuma, or 'scuffed Deployment Tactics'. I think keeping the Addersgall as they are wouldn't be terrible, as we would need our mit options to come from somewhere, and Ixochole, bland as it is, is still useful to 'combine' with other things. Essentially, 'augmenting' our augmented Kardia healing with an additional boost of an Addersgall heal. As mentioned above, changing Galls into the Kardia gameplay thing, instead of something else, would lead us to a WHM situation where it's just one thing for the gameplay, and I fear that'd get stale fast. Bouncing between the two systems would fit the lore/identity of the SGE better I think, especially if there's systems that interlink the two.

[IceBlueNinja]

@Roe call me wierd but am sorry I honestly and rarely if ever use pneuma and worst off zoe with it cause the abundance of other heals sage have to top off the party makes pneuma to me another ast synestry. Honestly zoe is awesome and I use it alot coupled with physis/krasis(which i finally see how good krasis is) it makes sages heals 90% stronger which can give a good Decent prog shield and you can ofc slap on OP holos as well or so help me god when you get a crit E diag and the its hahaha when a boss does a big nasty attack that not only does 0 damage it literally do not even scratch the shield its still full to boot. In short I use zoe on E prog/Diag 95 if not 100% of the time and there is always pani/hami as back up. There so much different ways on sage to heal I never feel like I am ever out of options even when things are going south.

Pepsis Soteria and toxicon(addersting gauge) and honestly pneuma really honestly are now just the four things I do want a rework, but zoe+krasis+physis together is stupidly powerful. Honestly did forgot soteria does work with krasis, usually if its a warrior I do not even need to press a heal or I just throw krasis on em and call it a day and pld with clem and other stuff and gnb with powerful migis , aurora and heart 0 heals or 1 heal maybe needed which taro handles fine or krasis. Only time I need deplete my entire kit is ofc darknight lol.

[Shurrikhan]

@Roe call me wierd but am sorry I honestly and rarely if ever use pneuma and worst off zoe with it cause the abundance of other heals sage have to top off the party makes pneuma to me another ast synestry. Honestly zoe is awesome and I use it alot coupled with physis/krasis

My apologies if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here, but... Zoe, Physis, and Krasis have no synergy with just those 3 things. Both Zoe and Krasis technically affect only GCD heals. Holos on someone affected by Krasis will heal within the standard deviation of regular Holos on someone with no such healing received buffs, and Zoe even specifies that it is consumed by only spells (GCDs), not abilities (oGCDs). For Zoe and Krasis to have synergy, you'd need to use a healing GCD, like Pneuma or EuP/EuD, giving it an 80% larger heal.

Pnuema is a spell, a 600p AoE spell, making it the best bang for your buck (over the 420 AoE potency from EuP) you can get out of Zoe as long as you don't need the maximum eHP increase of a shield to survive the next incoming hit.

[ty_taurus]

I've talked about this a bit, but does anyone else feel like Pnuema being relegated to just a burst heal feels disappointing? I don't dislike the effect of a DPS neutral attack that provides burst healing, but I wish it wasn't o the most exciting animation in Sage's kit. I'd rather Pneuma be converted into a DPS tool and give the current effect to a different animation. Am I alone in that sentiment? I've seen a couple people mention that in the Sage media tour surveys, but only a couple.

[Shurrikhan]

I've talked about this a bit, but does anyone else feel like Pnuema being relegated to just a burst heal feels disappointing? I don't dislike the effect of a DPS neutral attack that provides burst healing, but I wish it wasn't o the most exciting animation in Sage's kit. I'd rather Pneuma be converted into a DPS tool and give the current effect to a different animation. Am I alone in that sentiment? I've seen a couple people mention that in the Sage media tour surveys, but only a couple.

I wouldn't mind being freer to pop it, sure. It certainly looks like burst damage tool first and healing only incidentally. Even in high fantasy, we don't tend to heal people with giant laser cannons.

Granted, the more we deepen Kardia's value/interplay, the more you'd want to potentially reserve bursty attacks for their healing value, while if we were to have healing resource generation scale with potency dealt, then you'd be obliged to hit it on CD, neither of which makes the best use of Pneuma's animation / apparent thematic weight. Hrmmm.

[ty_taurus]

I wouldn't mind being freer to pop it, sure. It certainly looks like burst damage tool first and healing only incidentally. Even in high fantasy, we don't tend to heal people with giant laser cannons.

Granted, the more we deepen Kardia's value/interplay, the more you'd want to potentially reserve bursty attacks for their healing value, while if we were to have healing resource generation scale with potency dealt, then you'd be obliged to hit it on CD, neither of which makes the best use of Pneuma's animation / apparent thematic weight. Hrmmm.

That's why I feel the weight of Kardia healing should fall on MP costs instead of on DPS potency. If it's based on how much damage you deal, the healing either becomes an afterthought because you'll just do your optimal rotation anyway and reap whatever benefits you generate from the healing when it conveniently lines up with healing requirements (i.e. Assize) or if that is your only way to effectively heal in stressful situations, then you just Dosis spam until healing is needed so that you have enough throughput to survive those mechanics. And neither of those is ideal in my book.

If you make your standard spells cost 0 MP, and then make Kardia usage based on MP, the MP management becomes a way for you to maintain DPS uptime while meeting healing requirements, and poor management forces you to drop DPS uptime as the penalty instead of gimping your ability to heal. It just stops you from being able to heal and attack at the same time.