Using BLU to end the war

[ty_taurus]

Riiiiight...

I know the way I write sounds very sarcastic and troll-y, but that's because I just don't care anymore. I really don't care what you do with White Mage, Scholar, or Astrologian, and I encourage you to demand whatever it is you would enjoy from those three as long as I get Sage. Sure I'm still trashing that mentality as bad, unfun design, but only because we all know I don't think your methods would do the jobs any good. If I lied about that and told you I flipped my perspective, you wouldn't believe that I was being honest and accuse me harder of being sarcastic. So I'm just speaking entirely unfiltered, that's all. I have no reason to not be honest. Do whatever you want with those three. The world is your oyster.

I've cared about this game way too much. I criticized it because I loved it, but what good has that done? It's done jack. It's clear there's no one listening cares about how much I love and respect this game, and how I want it to be better because I know it can be better. So screw it.

[Renathras]

Why would I demand them all when that runs counter to how I think and what I believe?

I've said from the start - and you know this - that I want there to be something for everyone to like. Even if it's not someone's "ideal world", something acceptable. It's why I said if WHM must be changed, I'm fine with SCH or AST or SGE, as long as at least one is something I can enjoy. I don't want them all. I don't even want any specific one.

It's the same as my views about reworks and how I don't think people should be robbed of something they already enjoy by having it changed out from under them. It's why I have said for a while SCH and AST should get their SB mechanics back, since they shouldn't have been robbed of them in the first place.

I've never buldozed over anyone. I've only ever tried for understanding and proposed compromise solutions, despite continued rejections and accusations to the contrary.

Heck, the position you are holding right now? How you feel right now?

That's how I've felt for a year arguing with you. Do you not remember me saying "Demand whatever it is you want from the others, just leave me one"?

How you feel right now, what you're saying right now; I've been there. I've said the same thing. And there was no one caring or concerned about me nor reaching out a hand in kindness to me. So I'll be damned if I don't reach out one to you.

[ty_taurus]

Why would I demand them all when that runs counter to how I think and what I believe?

When I described leaving White Mage alone and fixing the other three as leaving White Mage to be ruined, you redacted with, and I'm paraphrasing, "No, I'm trying to SAVE White Mage, and I'm letting you all ruin the other healers!" Or something to that effect. Which if true, why wouldn't you want to save more healers from us skill-ceilingists?

How you feel right now, what you're saying right now; I've been there. I've said the same thing. And there was no one caring or concerned about me nor reaching out a hand in kindness to me. So I'll be damned if I don't reach out one to you.

[Renathras]

When I described leaving White Mage alone and fixing the other three as leaving White Mage to be ruined, you redacted with, and I'm paraphrasing, "No, I'm trying to SAVE White Mage, and I'm letting you all ruin the other healers!" Or something to that effect. Which if true, why wouldn't you want to save more healers from us skill-ceilingists?

Because I believe there is strength in diversity. Options. Choice.

And I believe this game is big enough to have multiple options to satisfy different tastes.

Note that I've never called it the "2 Healer Model"; all simple with only one deviating from that. It's always been "4 Healer Model"; that we have FOUR healers, so why not make them EACH different from the others to appeal to different playstyles and players, the better to ensure that everyone has at least one, and possibly more than one but at least one, that they can enjoy.

Did you truly, in all the times I've said it, never understand this?

[ty_taurus]

Because I believe there is strength in diversity. Options. Choice.

And I believe this game is big enough to have multiple options to satisfy different tastes.

Note that I've never called it the "2 Healer Model"; all simple with only one deviating from that. It's always been "4 Healer Model"; that we have FOUR healers, so why not make them EACH different from the others to appeal to different playstyles and players, the better to ensure that everyone has at least one, and possibly more than one but at least one, that they can enjoy.

Did you truly, in all the times I've said it, never understand this?

I mean what everyone else was suggesting was also a "4 Healer Model™" because while reworking all four healers, they would all still be distinct with different playstyles. The only difference is that you specifically want to right-click White Mage and hit "Lock." But everyone and their mother was saying that White Mage could still be simple, just not completely devoid of choice during downtime, and that was also quite different from the other general desires of wanting Scholar to use DoTs, Astrologian to lean into support in some capacity, and Sage becoming a caster DPS lite. The fact that you did not acknowledge that as also a "4 Healer Model™" makes it very confusing as to what actually qualifies and what doesn't.

You've always talked about how you were giving up the other three healers, implying you would rather not give them up, but are willing to sacrifice your idea of good healer design to placate us skill-ceilingists, but now when one of us is offering two of them back, you don't want them?

[Renathras]

The only difference is that you specifically want to right-click White Mage and hit "Lock."

..........

Ignoring that bit of stupidity - because even you know that isn't what I've ever said or advocated for at any point and you know it's a caricature. If you don't, what have you been reading the past year? Clearly not my own posts on the topic.

Okay, simple terms: While we think alike in some ways, we do not in others.

To me, I do think what you want is a bad idea - when given to all healers. I don't think it's inherently bad on its own as long as it isn't universal. This is one way we aren't alike, because you think the way healers are now is bad WHETHER OR NOT it is applied to all healers. My position, on the other hand, is that SOME being like you want IS good, but not all of them.

I've been so consistent on this, and so outspoken on it, I'm genuinely boggled that you still are getting what I think on this wrong.

I don't WANT three of them. Never have. I've always said the goal should be that at least one appeals to different player types, but that we also appeal OVERALL to as many player types as possible, which necessitates making all four different. I don't WANT them all the same. You HAVE to know this by now. There's no way you couldn't unless you've simply ignored every one of my posts on the topic, even the ones you replied to, for over a year.

[ty_taurus]

And there’s the call of the void. I am indeed in hell, and there is no escape.

[ForsakenRoe]

I CAN, the issue is to whom are we appealing? People like you or people like me? I doubt you'd be happy with anything short of a total rework, so there likely aren't a mere 2 abilities that could be added to make you see the gameplay as more fun (without changing anything else, of course).

My own suggestion has long been the same; WHM to have its EW form with a few modifications (Pro-shell, Aero 3, and some way to make some GCD healing damage neutral

Anything. Whatever you think would be a good addition to the game. I would like to know, if you had full creative control for DT, what you would add to WHM, given that it is already able to keep up with any healing check thrown at it thus far with it's current kit.

And that second part is the weird point of contention, that shouldn't be. You are asking for Dia at 30s, and Aero3 (presumably upgrading to Banish) at 24s. I was asking for Dia at 12s and Banish at 15s. Timers aside, these two asks are functionally identical in terms of buttons pressed. So all the arguing seems to come down to 'how many Glares are we removing from the rotation per minute'. For example, do those two timers have to be that duration each? I understand you don't like DOTs, so Dia probably needs to stay pretty long for you. But then, could they not shorten Aero3 to 15 or 12, and buff it's potency massively to compensate so it feels even more bursty and WHM-y? Converting it to an 'up front damage' like Phlegma, while 'homogenization', would not be bad, especially if it upgrades to Banish since that IS a Phlegma-like in Bozja. Compared to what I originally asked for (Dia 12, Banish 15), if we swap the two, and then double Dia back to 30, that takes my pie chart of 8 Glares a minute back to 10, out of a possible 24 GCDs. Which is still less than half so I'd be okay with it (I think). We'd still be adding in 5 non-Glares like that. Essentially it feels like your lines in the sand are on very small details about things, like timers/durations, and it's hard to work around that because I don't know what is the limit for you on each timer. Would you be okay with Dia being 24s, or 21s, IDK maybe 30s is a hard requirement for you and it is set in stone, who knows, sure isn't me and that's the issue

My position, on the other hand, is that SOME being like you want IS good, but not all of them.

Now, that assumes that what we want for a healer, and what we suggested on these forums, are 100% identical. I would assume that, given their background, Ty has modified the proposals they put here to better match the game's engine, tried to respect the dev team's pipeline and lower devtime costs, etc. So it doesn't 100% match what they'd want if they could just, y'know, finger-snap job-done magically. Same for me, what I put for WHM isn't necessarily what I'd want entirely, some bits got left out. I even added lines saying like, Cleric as a 60s CD would be cool but if it can't be fit in (hotbar space or whatever), cut this bit first'. Your 4 Healer model falls for the same trap, surely, being as it's four designs that you want. That being 'the four healers need one between them to have WHM's current gameplay style, and the other 3 can have different gameplay styles (but all must be unique)'. As soon as three healers are named as the 'sacrificed' ones, then the 4th is subject to 'what you want', making all four of the healers be, like, in a quantum superstate of 'not WHMd until the other 3 are declared not-WHMd', and because of that they're all 'A design that Ren wants, until they're not', in a weird way.

And unfortunately, even the game itself falls for the trap. Because the four designs we have now, in game as we speak, were designed by the dev team. They're what SE wants. So in order to fit with what you say here, we'd need the healers to either be designed by four separate people, with no communication between them, or be created by a collaborative effort such that no one person has a majority say over their direction (eg by using feedback from a survey to guide design direction). As it stands, I'd expect the latter is the case, but with only four devs on the whole team (and none of them being a healer main), it's very likely they get stuck in an echo chamber of their own ideas and start being unable to see outside the box on alternative direction, hence we're constantly getting more and more healing stuff each expansion

I would love to see the parallel universe where SE takes designs from forum users for the expansion, so for example, you were 100% in charge of making a WHM design, Ty the SGE one, Skellington the AST one, and idk who on these forums is a big SCH advocate, but that person can do SCH. How different, unbalanced, and dysfunctional would they all be when put into one game together? It would not work in the slightest, but damn it'd be a hilarious 4 weeks before they emergency hotfix them to balance them for Savage release