Using BLU to end the war

[ForsakenRoe]

1) not "any WHM main": I am a WHM main.

2) What do you say to the SCH that doesn't like DoTs? What do you say to the SGE that doesn't like a real DPS gameplay? Your own position fails this test.

3) There are still "flashy new changes" possible that aren't new DPS rotational buttons. An upgrade to Holy, some new utility button, etc. (and the sch/meta bit)

That said, I'm fine with - and have said before - a new Healer Job being added that plays exactly like WHM does now

1: Yes, I would have said 'the vast majority of WHM mains', but then chances are I'd have got hit with 'actually the majority is satisfied with the current gameplay' or something, because we have little to zero data beyond these unofficial surveys to see what the playerbase actually thinks about this stuff. The fact remains that, should the events described re: the job action trailer actually play out, WHM would get several weeks of being the punching bag for reddit to laugh at. It could be absolute godmode strong on release, but for that pre-release period it'd get ripped to shreds. And that would set the perception for a while. WHM could have gotten the SHB lily fixes in 4.3 alongside the DRK changes that made DRK 'actually pretty good' back then and it wouldn't have mattered because people had already decided what was good and what was bad. Going further back, I've heard on the grapevine that AST was very viable for 3.2 (Midas) but everyone was so stuck in their ways of using WHM, they carried on using WHM and saying 'AST bad', resulting in SE going 'sod it' and buffing AST to the stratosphere to persuade people to try it. And instead of going 'oh AST good now' they all swapped to saying 'lol WHM trash now' because there's only room for two on the winner's podium

2: It did not seem to be an issue for SE when, despite the people who DO like DOTs settling into maining SCH, then removed all of the DOTs in SHB. Beyond that, I do feel somewhat for those who would have a new playstyle (possibly one they don't enjoy) thrust on them, but I think it's an unfotunate necessity of making the jobs feel distinct from one another again. We cannot just lock DOTs off of SCH because 'what if someone does not like DOTs', because we can apply that thinking to all four healers, and then DOTs as a playstyle are just off the table entirely. Then we do the same with say, MP management. Or CD management. And then we get to where we are now: one single uninspired filler spell, because everything else was ruled out because 'what if player doesn't like that playstyle, but wants to keep maining this job'. Which all goes back to 'if SE hadn't done the SHB prune, we would not be in this mess', because SCH would have always been the DOT focused healer, and nobody would have gotten used to BroilMage

3: We just got one, called Holy 3. It's 10p more than Holy 1. It's the perfect example of 'all flash and no substance'. Utility buttons are only as useful as based on the situations that demand them. Lilybell is cool, only when the fight actually hits hard, and in quick succession (eg Harrowing). Without that, eg if you're fighting EX roulette bosses, it's nothing more than 'plant it and instant-detonate for 1000p', which makes it pretty bland in most content, because most content does not demand it's true potential. Macrocosmos was an interesting one because it got such incredible use because of an oversight. Most other 'utilities' are very forgettable. Looking at DPS, Mantra/Minne/other heal increasers are hardly ever used correctly outside of tough content. The Warden's Paean gets popped by Bards on themselves much more often than it does on allies as a cleanse, such that I'm already casting Esuna by the time they use it on the ally, rendering it's 'gain' of saving the healers a GCD moot. Ranged and Tanks have interrupts and half the time they don't even get used, you can see Dohn Mheg's first pull for that. I'm not sure what 'utility' you are thinking of, that would be somehow super impactful and appreciated, yet also not impactful enough to mean 'this is locked slot, we NEED that utility'. Expedience is cool, but you don't need the additional movespeed for anything. In fact, it could lose the movespeed entirely and I'd still call it 'strong move', the Mit is the reason I think it's strong

4: Yes, this is the part that keeps confusing me. You previously described the model as '3 healers change, one stays as it is for those who enjoy current gameplay', and then when AST was suggested as the non-changing one, that was ruled out because 'its the least played' or something. So, to me, it seems less that 'one stays the same' and more 'either WHM or SGE stays the same because those are the ones I play'. It seemed very goalpost-shifty. If SE wants to add a new healer which branches off of CNJ, and is explicitly stated by SE that 'we are adding this for people who enjoy current WHM, so that we can evolve WHM's kit while allowing those players to keep the playstyle they enjoy', I have no issue with that. The issue is if they add a new healer and DON'T make that explicit statement, because then the perception by default is that the new healer will have potential for growth like SCH or AST would be getting. Which would lead to complaints from people when it turns out that it does not get to grow.

Ty you wanted to use BLU to end the war but you have merely fanned the flames and the war rages more than ever before, it seems. And yes the proposal is not serious, because as Ren rightly states, no healer puts up a DOT and then stands AFK for 10 minutes. Well, some do, but they have their reasons, I'm sure. So, I think you need to change the DOT potency to 480 (to better match SGE's per-2-min output), and then add Water Cannon, with a potency of 10, so that there is a filler GCD to press. It's completely 'wow who cares' on potency so people don't feel as bad for missing one or two because of movement, but it's there so that people have something to press when there's nothing else to do. Or make it Flying Sardine with it's instantcast, so they don't need to worry about movement blocking their GCD usage

Only part of that was serious and it is up to the reader to work out which part

[Renathras]

...

1. I think it would have been better to say "WHM mains who want major changes". Since we don't know how many they are nor their percentage of the whole, using any such terms doesn't work. WHM is already the punching bag and has been for 6 years. That ship has sailed and is irrelevant anyway if people playing the Job are having fun with it. So no, that's not a great argument.

2. And this is why you should oppose them doing what you're pitching now - you know how bad it is when SE does things taking Jobs and playstyles (in the SB case, DPS/support healers) out from under people. But setting that aside: WHM in ShB - as discussed in the Healers: Then And Now thread - didn't lose much in the transition and gained more than they lost, ending up in a better state in ShB and (other than 6.0 itself) EW. So making WHM go back to that makes no sense, and even advocates for change aren't suggesting going back to SB WHM other than "readd Aero 3", which is a position I've come to support myself anyway. If you see something that harmed people, your first thought shouldn't be "So this justifies harming the people I don't like who had nothing to do with that decision anyway."

3. THE POINT remains - no one is saying no change ever to anything. It's just the supported changes not being DPS rotational.

4. I've made it clear enough times, you still being unclear is a willful decision. I'm not sure how to explain it to you better since you're so resistant to understanding it. And "room for growth" does not require "DPS rotation expansion". Not giving WHM a damage rotation has plenty of "room for growth".

[ty_taurus]

Not giving WHM a damage rotation has plenty of "room for growth".

A cancerous growth...

[ForsakenRoe]

I've made it clear enough times, you still being unclear is a willful decision. I'm not sure how to explain it to you better since you're so resistant to understanding it. And "room for growth" does not require "DPS rotation expansion". Not giving WHM a damage rotation has plenty of "room for growth".

Please give two examples, a 96 skill and a 100 skill, that you're thinking of that would make WHM gameplay more fun for both casual and veteran alike, because I'm like 99% sure we'd be back to business as usual faster than with Aquaveil

As for Aero 3, sure let's add Aero 3 again, I don't think anyone has an issue with that. 24s DOT though, and you don't like DOTs. So instead, we could have it be a 24s CD burst damage CD. Oh, now it's functionally identical to what I've previously suggested with Banish, just with a longer CD. Which is the point of contention it seems: My suggestions would be agreeable by the looks of it, if I wasn't so adamant on how many Glare's they remove. if I had left Dia at 30s and Banish was a 24s CD, that'd be completely fine, because that's functionally identical to 'return Aero 3', it's specifically because the timers were lower, meaning pressing not-Glare more often, that was the contentious part. Which is what I find so weird about it all