So when is AST getting nerfed in Frontline

[Tsumdere]

I play AST in Frontlines and CC. The issue is not AST, but DRK. DRK is the only reason that the DRG/AST meat grinders exist in the first place. Salted Earth is the root of many, many problems in Frontlines, especially when the maps are designed with chokepoints.

Also saying that premades aren't an issue is laughable. I play in a premade (DRK/DRG/DRG/AST btw). I don't want premades to be removed. But pretending that premades don't have significant advantage over solo-queuers is crazy. Guard means nothing when you are 100 to 0 in the 1 second you are in the Salted Earth succ animation.

[Valence]

An example of one premade we get:
A WAR and DRK will jump into the group simultaneously. The WAR stunning the group, the DRK voking. If caught unawares, purify would remove the stuns, and then you can use Guard. However, by this time, the DRGs of the premade team have already used their LB. At best, chances are you'll have taken at least the first one as full damage before even getting the chance to use Guard. Your HP will be low and Guard isn't enough to cover the remaining LBs from the premade.

Sometimes you can avoid it by keeping away from the group, though, this is almost impossible on some maps. Marking the premade will make them easier to spot, giving you more notice to prepare Guard to avoid both the stun and reduce damage somewhat. But, even if you're lucky and able to use Guard immediately, it still isn't always enough to cover the huge wave of coordinated damage you're about to get.
Not only this, but it requires players to be prepared of the premade's method of attack which, if they only play occasionally, they're unlikely to be.

It's not like people are complaining about one or two DRGs. Then I would understand your advice of "Open your eyes".

Sky Shatter requires 3 seconds of cooldown before trigger, starting at activation of Sky High. Purify + Guard takes 1s at most, and you can add 1s of reaction time (which is the human average reaction time). It's plenty of time to react accordingly (unless the FL servers crap the bed, which is another can of worms).

In practice though DRGs come from a lot further away when initiating their LB unless they're extremely cocky and jump directly in, which can be a death sentence. FL maps are huge in comparison and if you dive in first odds are you're going to be crowd controlled to death, have to purify before finally attempting the LB, which will not only be obvious as heck to everybody now seeing their target jumping away and become untargetable, but also probably with half your HP missing already or more. And pray not to just get polymorphed by a WhM, which means you'll just end up flat dead with no purify exit.

So in practice DRG LBs come from further away and have to slowly run to their targets, which often takes more than 3s to resolve (up to the full 5s). If they're trying to coordinate with their tanks, odds are they'll need the extra time of margin before landing. Honestly, I find premade SkyShatter stacks a lot more cumbersome for that very last reason, solo LB is a lot more free and easy to pull fast because you don't rely on anybody else doing their part at the exact same time. However, a point has to be made on staggered Skyshatters, which are the best way to mop up people that guarded the first ones. But those all but necessitate a premade to pull off, in fact, premades tend to focus on trying to land a one stack nuke that will leave no survivors if unguarded, while staggered LBs tend to naturally happen from solo players (which can make solo BH5 players extremely dangerous in another way than premades).

Amusingly enough, it's the semi casual / semi hardcore DRG players that I find the harder to kill at times, because a lot of them don't even seem aware that geirskogul buffs the LB damage as well, and catching better players immediately when they land with the buff active negates more than 25% of their innate DR and makes them squishy. But obviously, those half baked LBs are a lot less dangerous in counterpart.

That's why essentially I was saying it's a problem of skill and reaction. A lot of players are just not trained to react fast enough or spot those properly. Every time I use a DRG LB in FLs, on average half of the people under me will guard eventually, while another half will remain completely clueless. Although honestly, the best answer always remains to run away or not be the first to engage the enemy team if you're a squishy job.

Another thing I want to add is that players are just completely clueless about all the counters they can use against those, especially premades, because premades by definition require more setup and combinations, which leaves a lot of holes to be exploited, namely the DRK which is the weak link of the whole deal. The DRK can be silenced, stunned, polymorphed (even better) when you just see them running in. To add insult to injury, it can also be pushed away with various pushbacks. Last defense lines can also be Mesotes popped at the right moment, even if it just covers one team. Is this much harder to pull than the ones on the other end doing their combo? I don't think it is.

If the problem was purely job imbalance, you would see no difference between playing a random team and a premade one. In reality, the difference is a gaping chasm

That's again why I'm saying it's a problem of skill difference. I do not, absolutely do not feel the same way. When I deal with premades or solo BH5 players (the good ones), I don't see any gaping chasm on my end. I'll chalk it up to different experiences as well. I'll say it again though, but the day they actually start fielding dancers in those premades is the day i'll freak out, because THAT would suddenly be a problem. But they don't, because so far they never felt the need to do it, since it seems to work on 50% of the playerbase and nets them enough bodies to turn fights (much like any solo players can also do on their own), and it requires a lot less coordination in the first place. What those premades do is essentially something that is very close to what can be achieved by a bunch of solo BH5 players already.

[Scintilla]

...

Hence why they will initially begin to run in alongside the DRK/WAR, then using the initial LB cast slightly before the WAR stun / DRK voke. Whether you want to believe it or not, they have the timing perfect. I do agree that many casual players won't even attempt to use Guard/Purify, which obviously doesn't help the matter. But even those who do don't fare much better. It may help you to get through the initial attacks (just...), but as soon as they reach BH5 (which obviously doesn't take long), there is very little anyone can do. Add in the WARs LB to remove Guard, and you're having the time of your life...

That said, the most common arguments for premades that I've seen so far have been these:
1. "Nothing's stopping them from doing it too. The combos are available for everyone"
2. "Having a premade team playing means nothing and gives no advantage. It's just that random players aren't good enough"

I personally play FL with friends (though rather than coordinate, we tend to compete with each other instead), but there are many who play solo. Having a large premade party should never be a pre-requisite to playing FLs without being repeatedly destroyed every game with ridiculous score differences. A reality of 'If you want to win, you have to have your own premade team, otherwise it's a guaranteed loss' is only going to push more players away from FLs. We aren't at that point at the moment (and I hope we never will be), but it's not a good outcome.

Practice will obviously give an advantage, there's nothing can be done about that. Players who play FLs a lot will likely do better than those who only play occasionally. In the rush of the moment, many casual players may overlook the skills available to them. That is the same vs premade parties or random ones and is ultimately irrelevant. The main argument here is the advantage that premade parties have and the issue they have become in FLs.

Random players manage perfectly fine vs random teams, hence why the win rates vs such teams are quite even. But when vs premades, random players suddenly 'don't have the skills'?
Which just confirms what we've been discussing: premade teams do have a big advantage over random teams.

The DRK can be silenced, stunned, polymorphed (even better) when you just see them running in. To add insult to injury, it can also be pushed away with various pushbacks.

Kind of depends on the premade. The DRK may be silenced, stunned etc., but I've also seen some premades which have prevented even this by having the DRK set off with Guard, a WAR/GNB jump ahead to stun the target group, immediately following which the DRK joins them to voke. The only way to stop this being to remove the DRKs Guard yourself - for example, using a MNK LB to stun and Enlightenment to push them away. If you're quick enough you may succeed, but chances are you'll die doing it - jumping out into no-mans-land to stop the DRK while a horde of enemy team are within range waiting to take advantage of the voke.

[Mawlzy]

I personally play FL with friends (though rather than coordinate, we tend to compete with each other instead), but there are many who play solo. Having a large premade party should never be a pre-requisite to playing FLs without being repeatedly destroyed every game with ridiculous score differences. A reality of 'If you want to win, you have to have your own premade team, otherwise it's a guaranteed loss' is only going to push more players away from FLs. We aren't at that point at the moment (and I hope we never will be), but it's not a good outcome.

This is the critical point! And in addition to turning away new players completely, there's another insidious consequence that serious players should care about deeply. We hear the complaint that there's a population of players wandering around aimlessly in FL just farming the daily XP. Maybe if matches involving premades weren't such rookie slaughterhouses, those players would enjoy the mode and be interested enough to improve their skills?

[Valence]

Hence why they will initially begin to run in alongside the DRK/WAR, then using the initial LB cast slightly before the WAR stun / DRK voke. Whether you want to believe it or not, they have the timing perfect. I do agree that many casual players won't even attempt to use Guard/Purify, which obviously doesn't help the matter. But even those who do don't fare much better. It may help you to get through the initial attacks (just...), but as soon as they reach BH5 (which obviously doesn't take long), there is very little anyone can do. Add in the WARs LB to remove Guard, and you're having the time of your life...

I legit don't see how there is little anyone can do. 3 Skyshatter with BH5 will not magically go through guard.

However if WAR removes guard, that's starting to be akin to having a DNC (easier to coordinate with a WAR, just a lot less powerful and far reaching). I have yet to see such premades though, but maybe they're everywhere on other DCs idk. They generally prefer stacking 3 DRGs, or 2 DRGs with an AST for Celestial River.

I personally play FL with friends (though rather than coordinate, we tend to compete with each other instead), but there are many who play solo. Having a large premade party should never be a pre-requisite to playing FLs without being repeatedly destroyed every game with ridiculous score differences. A reality of 'If you want to win, you have to have your own premade team, otherwise it's a guaranteed loss' is only going to push more players away from FLs. We aren't at that point at the moment (and I hope we never will be), but it's not a good outcome.

You're right, we're not at that point at the moment. I'll chalk it up to differences between DCs because so far in every game I have witnessed, premades are a minority, and most people just queue up with the jobs they like. Most BH5 players are also solo players, and while a lot of them sure use meta jobs, a lot also don't, and almost all of them are easy to take out without even the need of having your own counter premade.

Practice will obviously give an advantage, there's nothing can be done about that. Players who play FLs a lot will likely do better than those who only play occasionally. In the rush of the moment, many casual players may overlook the skills available to them. That is the same vs premade parties or random ones and is ultimately irrelevant. The main argument here is the advantage that premade parties have and the issue they have become in FLs.

That's where I don't agree and will probably never do. I don't see that so called advantage people keep bringing up, unless we suddenly see Guard removal jobs mixed into the deal, which I've never seen so far. And as I said above, I do think staggered DRG LBs from solo players are more dangerous, I personally fear those more than I fear premades, because I know how to defend those, and staggered LBs cannot be all guarded, which means you need to know exactly when to bail if taken out of position.

Random players manage perfectly fine vs random teams, hence why the win rates vs such teams are quite even. But when vs premades, random players suddenly 'don't have the skills'?
Which just confirms what we've been discussing: premade teams do have a big advantage over random teams.

I've never witnessed those supposedly gaping differences myself. People are blowing this out of proportions.

Kind of depends on the premade. The DRK may be silenced, stunned etc., but I've also seen some premades which have prevented even this by having the DRK set off with Guard, a WAR/GNB jump ahead to stun the target group, immediately following which the DRK joins them to voke. The only way to stop this being to remove the DRKs Guard yourself - for example, using a MNK LB to stun and Enlightenment to push them away. If you're quick enough you may succeed, but chances are you'll die doing it - jumping out into no-mans-land to stop the DRK while a horde of enemy team are within range waiting to take advantage of the voke.

If your DRK guards instead of doing what they're supposed to do, they can't be guarding and rushing your team at the same time, that's just not possible even with expedient up. If they start guarding once they're already there instead of using salted earth, you already missed your window of opportunity to silence them in both cases. If they wait that long to pop salted earth while making sure to soak silences under guard, it leaves 5 more seconds for people to bail. This is a fail strategy.


Either way, the whole point I was trying to make is that whether there is premades or not, the disaster is there.

[Valence]

Alright, actually, instead of trying to have a deaf conversation between obviously two very different types of experiences where my casuals are not being impacted as much when yours are literally living through armaggeddon, please send me some footage of the problem so we can share a common basis?

[Scintilla]

Alright, actually, instead of trying to have a deaf conversation between obviously two very different types of experiences where my casuals are not being impacted as much when yours are literally living through armaggeddon, please send me some footage of the problem so we can share a common basis?

Perhaps I should consider it, as clearly quite a proportion of players seem to believe that purely because they haven't seen anything like that when in FLs, that it doesn't exist. That said, I am not particularly tech-savvy, so working out how would be a new challenge in itself!

A few months ago when I was trying to get the Seal Rock achievement glamour on my alt, I found a particularly frustrating premade to be spamming the FLs for most of the afternoon/evening (inconveniently for me at the time, haha). They'd win every game by a huge margin. Occasionally I was put with them but, more often than not, I was against them. This did continue for quite a while but, more recently, I do admit that I have begun to see them slightly less. Now, if I do see them, it tends to be in the evenings/night. So, on the positive side, there's been some improvement in my experiences more recently. However, I don't doubt that other players on other DCS, are still going through the same issues.

[Mecia]

Theres a premade in Light EU thats probably notorious by now for regularly carrying teams. Boring to play with and against.

Edit: 80% win rate by the DRKs own words lmao. Assuming they meant weekly and on a sunday.

[Mawlzy]

Alright, actually, instead of trying to have a deaf conversation between obviously two very different types of experiences where my casuals are not being impacted as much when yours are literally living through armaggeddon, please send me some footage of the problem so we can share a common basis?

You might look at K/D/A stats after each match. That's what originally got my attention. Obviously for a single match an excellent shot-caller and skilled players can produce surprising stats. But over the course of a session you see the same four names appear with consistently amazing stats.

[Valence]

Perhaps I should consider it, as clearly quite a proportion of players seem to believe that purely because they haven't seen anything like that when in FLs, that it doesn't exist. That said, I am not particularly tech-savvy, so working out how would be a new challenge in itself!

A few months ago when I was trying to get the Seal Rock achievement glamour on my alt, I found a particularly frustrating premade to be spamming the FLs for most of the afternoon/evening (inconveniently for me at the time, haha). They'd win every game by a huge margin. Occasionally I was put with them but, more often than not, I was against them. This did continue for quite a while but, more recently, I do admit that I have begun to see them slightly less. Now, if I do see them, it tends to be in the evenings/night. So, on the positive side, there's been some improvement in my experiences more recently. However, I don't doubt that other players on other DCS, are still going through the same issues.

To be perfectly clear I have seen premades and I am not saying they don't exist. I just happen to disagree on their actual impact.

You don't need to record or whatever, I was just interested if someone had any footage at hand, or VODs from any streamer where it can be seen.

You might look at K/D/A stats after each match. That's what originally got my attention. Obviously for a single match an excellent shot-caller and skilled players can produce surprising stats. But over the course of a session you see the same four names appear with consistently amazing stats.

Never that clear cut in my experience, and usually I'm up there with the top as a solo player, with other solo players, which tends to makes me doubt that either we have any premades active when it happens, even though we can see them operate at times with that DRK followed by DRGs. I've never ever witnessed a single game where there was only 4 top names in the same team and literally nothing else at the top of the KDA...