What makes a good Job mechanically?

[Renathras]

One thing I think that we have to collectively realize: All the push for min-maxing is bad.

Simple example:

RDM had Corps-a-Corps and I still remember when SB's Fanfests introduced RDM, everyone thought it was so cool they could dash in, melee some quick strikes, then backflip out.

...then the complaints about backflipping off the edge.

So Engagement was introduced, but did less damage than Displacement. It didn't look as cool and was less risky, so did less damage.

Then the min-maxers complained.

So then its damage was increased to the same as Displacement. And now, they're not even used for movement. RDM is supposed to be near melee at all times for all that glorious auto-attack damage, and use Engagement exclusively because it has less animation lock and thus can be used to weave more and do more DPS.

So where we had a set of cool abilities - charge in, throw out some quick strikes, stylishly flip back out - now we we have stacks of abilities and cram Corps-a-corps and Engagement into weaves during the burst window to maximize damage and avoid using Displacement unless absolutely necessary for the movement. What was cool and fun was sacrificed on the alter of min-maxing.

EDIT: Typo for "cram"

[TheDustyOne]

One thing I think that we have to collectively realize: All the push for min-maxing is bad...

*snip*

While I agree that we've lost some job specialty and flavour because of min-maxers, I wouldn't use RDM as the example there. Especially since Displacement can still be used, and used effectively for movement when needed. Displacement has a lot of issues, especially in cramped arenas, so a RDM DPS was gimped simply because the square or circle was too small. Not exactly fair for a job to not be able to use an attack because the arena designer held a middle finger to your face.

RDM always used Corps-a-corps on cooldown with Displacement when possible, free damage is free damage. Min-maxers are fine taking extra risks when it's needed to push extra potency, and "not being in melee range when it's time" is one of those acceptable risks. The extra charge helped with letting Corps-a-corps and Displacement serve their actual functions. Engagement just brought an extra tool to minimize stupid risks. There's an argument to be had about Engagement being less DPS to encourage still using Displacement, but it's a minor part of the RDM kit as a whole, and it's not worth creating stupid risks over 20-30 potency every 35s.

Also, who in their right mind cares about RDM auto-attack damage? it's like 20 points of damage per auto, it barely registers as a point of potency, crit variance alone negates whatever "advantage" auto attack uptime brought. You may as well complain of BLM not being in melee range for staff whacks at that point. No min-maxer has ever complained of a RDM losing out on autos.

You're better looking at something like AST cards for min-maxers taking away flavour. RDM is one job that consistently improves in design as the game ages, the biggest problem people have with it are balance related. Also it's not always min-maxers doing this, a lot of it is also people not wanting to put in the effort to learn the intricacies of a job and want it to play "more like x". I'd put it more on Squares needless push to streamline as much as possible before min-maxers at this point in the games life.

[Eisi]

Non-convoluted rotations for me.



Monk is annoying because it has optimal drift windows.

This is so horrible to read. I love Optimal Drift Monk and to know that players find it annoying and not fun like me breaks my heart. I just love how adaptable Monk is and how it's not just a rigid 1-2-3-4-5 but instead varies based on priority. You can always easily get back into the flow from downtime. All I wish is to build a bit of natural variance into the kit via rng in for example the timers.

[Shurrikhan]

Non-convoluted rotations for me.

Monk is annoying because it has optimal drift windows.

Wait, how is Optimal Drift convoluted? It's just trying not to waste Twin/Demo potential. It's therefore variable, yes, but still entirely intuitive.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Wait, how is Optimal Drift convoluted? It's just trying not to waste Twin/Demo potential. It's therefore variable, yes, but still entirely intuitive.

For you maybe. I didn't find the infographic to really explain it well. Maybe because it constantly mentions brotherhood but never shows where brotherhood is used. I'm missing a reference point there that I need to understand it.


Some people count gcds mid fight I guess. I don't have the capacity to do that while dealing with the rotation itself and mechanics.

[Shurrikhan]

One thing I think that we have to collectively realize: All the push for min-maxing is bad.

Simple example:

RDM had Corps-a-Corps and I still remember when SB's Fanfests introduced RDM, everyone thought it was so cool they could dash in, melee some quick strikes, then backflip out.

...then the complaints about backflipping off the edge.

That's... not a horrible complaint, though, given that the game has no Z axis and therefore wouldn't let you, start (controllably) jumping off the boss's edge end to ensure that your backstep damage skill wouldn't then send you (with no further control) off the edge behind you.

The issue, imo, is that when the larger game issue was revealed (one which didn't even exist in early ARR, where we still had a Z axis and could therefore Elusive Jump from rooftop to rooftop, and mobs couldn't hit you from 20 yalms below you), instead of addressing the actual problematic engine interaction that denied players agency that it seemed they obviously should have to manage that mechanic, they fell back yet again on button bloat.

Heck, they could have even involved a more comprehensive solution, such as "snapping" normally fixed-distance backsteps to pathable area (trimming or adding up to 20% of the range to move instead you to the nearest area on which a player can stand), or by allowing for a slight degree of controlled movement during dash-to skills.

But no... instead we just get... Engagement.

So Engagement was introduced, but did less damage than Displacement. It didn't look as cool and was less risky, so did less damage.

Then the min-maxers complained.

And that, at the very latest, is where I feel they should have told them to just deal with it. Getting 2 charges on Displacement was plenty to deal with the issue of any damage loss during forced melee-range stacks.

But at the same time, making Displacement a modern Repelling Shot equivalent (i.e., pure backstep utility) makes sense from the point you add Engagement, as one or the other is going to get relegated to fiddly-dumped. They shouldn't have added Engagement in the first place if Displacement out was supposed to be part of RDM's visual identity and playflow, and instead have actually dealt with the underlying problem it revealed.

[Turtledeluxe]

I'll agree and extend to why everyjob being a burst JOB ruins the game. As DPS right now seems to be the only way jobs can have some uniqueness

Ontop of that everything being hyper DPS focused, where nothing support wise matters as long as a job can squeeze out a tiny bit more damage then the others that's what makes it "meta", makes Tank/healer have to be so close to each other in everything that they've become different flavours.

Personally I want the game to put more importance on utility, skills so that Tank and Healer can bring unique things on the table, heck even phys ranged is meant to be somewhat utility focused. Not to say that would just be a easy change to make that one person could solve over night, but I think balance goes beyond making every damage number the same and making every job play the same.

The game in general is completely predicated around dealing damage to HP sponges and avoiding attacks. There's almost zero shining moments for a healer outside near wipe scenarios and even worse for buffers as they are tacking on non meaningful increases on already insane damage.

Given that we are dealing with an outdated engine and outdated combat it's a deadly combo situation where I just don't see room for improvement. They tried to create the illusion of healer and buffer experience by originally designing jobs based on resource management, button presses, etc. People complained, so now most roadblocks are gone and jobs are just simplified damage rotators.

What else can they really do when we don't have elemental weaknesses, true build diversity (may as well just go crit) , complex level design, diverse encounters (physics of the fights are constricted by the engine), etc? The game is just too old to really put a new spin on combat and, by extension, job roles without doing some seriously risky new concepts the team clearly has no intention of investigating.

As a BLM I look forward to my two new spells that do modify Xenoglossy for 10s or something.

[Syln]

While i was thinking about your question i realized that rotation contribute to make the game loop redundant, doing the same rotation, while doing the same fight, listening to the same music in the same arena over and over and over.

Hot take : 2 min meta is just a symptom of a greater problem called rotation.

As it stand, i can't think of any way that is not a major gameplay overhaul that would make make job feel fun for me anymore, i guess it was bound to happen after 20 years of playing mmorpg that have more or less the same gameplay.

[Shurrikhan]

For you maybe. I didn't find the infographic to really explain it well. Maybe because it constantly mentions brotherhood but never shows where brotherhood is used. I'm missing a reference point there that I need to understand it.


Some people count gcds mid fight I guess. I don't have the capacity to do that while dealing with the rotation itself and mechanics.

You... do not need to do that for Optimal Drift anyways...

Admittedly, the image overcomplicates this. You're just trying, ultimately, to meet four guidelines simultaneously:

1. "Get near maximal (GCD) potency under each RoF",
2. "Don't delay RoF unless it would allow for an extra Leaden or Demo under RoF, and by no more than a GCD",
3. "Don't let Demo or Twin fall off", and
4. "Don't clip Demo by more than a single tick per minute."

The "Drift" part just notes that (at the BiS GCD speed) you're not going to start each RoF on the same GCD. Instead, optimally, it will... drift.

Tbf, though, if you increase your SkS quite a bit further, you can meet those criteria without actually having to shift things around. You just end up doing Opo->Twin->PB->RoF->Opo->Opo->Opo->Phantom->Demolish->Opo instead for your odd-minute bursts instead while every even minute runs from Demolish to Demolish and ends in Phoenix (and, with enough speed, a final Leaden falls under RoF).

But... Crit is king for a reason, so the max damage from that rotation is faintly less. If you like being a speed demon and dislike having much drift, though, you may as well go for that.

[Renathras]

You... do not need to do that for Optimal Drift anyways...

Admittedly, the image overcomplicates this. You're just trying, ultimately, to meet four guidelines simultaneously:

1. "Get near maximal (GCD) potency under each RoF",
2. "Don't delay RoF unless it would allow for an extra Leaden or Demo under RoF, and by no more than a GCD",
3. "Don't let Demo or Twin fall off", and
4. "Don't clip Demo by more than a single tick per minute."

The "Drift" part just notes that (at the BiS GCD speed) you're not going to start each RoF on the same GCD. Instead, optimally, it will... drift.

Tbf, though, if you increase your SkS quite a bit further, you can meet those criteria without actually having to shift things around. You just end up doing Opo->Twin->PB->RoF->Opo->Opo->Opo->Phantom->Demolish->Opo instead for your odd-minute bursts instead while every even minute runs from Demolish to Demolish and ends in Phoenix (and, with enough speed, a final Leaden falls under RoF).

But... Crit is king for a reason, so the max damage from that rotation is faintly less. If you like being a speed demon and dislike having much drift, though, you may as well go for that.

...

You know, as per my norms, I am 100% glad a Job like that is in this game for people that just that sort of thing.

...but holy hell am I glad that not every Job is anything like that. XD If you'll excuse me, I need to go re-iron my smooth monkey brain after reading that...