AOE Spam Fest <Please remove it>

[Alhanelem]

Saying people are losing touch with the point of leveling and then claiming the point of leveling is character progression is a great example of your first point.

Leveling does progress your character. How is the game failing at that?

[Churchill]

1. Not directed at you, good to see you're keeping to SOP
2. Leveling is a time sink and serves no other purpose, nor should it
3. If people want to be prepared for endgame, then store the majority of your AF gear, get to melding, and read some guides.

[DeadRiser]

1. Not directed at you, good to see you're keeping to SOP
2. Leveling is a time sink and serves no other purpose, nor should it
3. If people want to be prepared for endgame, then store the majority of your AF gear, get to melding, and read some guides.

1. WTF?
2. Leveling gives players the chance to learn the game's mechanics, how fights are done, how abilities works, how to work as a team, etc. If it's such a time sink, maybe you should go level your other classes...
3. What does this even have to do with the topic?

[Shurrikhan]

1. Not directed at you, good to see you're keeping to SOP
2. Leveling is a time sink and serves no other purpose, nor should it
3. If people want to be prepared for endgame, then store the majority of your AF gear, get to melding, and read some guides.

But then, hypothetically, why would one want to rush along to the endgame of a world that isn't appealing enough to make leveling fun in and of itself? To progress an nonexistent story or one with no basis in the actual world? To put myself through chores with far less freedom so I that I can be more prepared for something also of few choices?

Any solid game will have enjoyable leveling, or generally won't improve by any drastic margin upon ending leveling. I can squeeze out an addiction for otherwise pointless gear-farming from almost any MMO. I want what's FF in it, and that begins for me at the start. I'll enjoy it until it's gone, and then switch to endgame when it's ended.

That's not to say that I don't think leveling, like endgame, could be made more fun or memorable. I just don't consider it a prerequisite to a game that starts "50 levels in". It has enjoyability in itself, generally considered the goal of a game.

[Shurrikhan]

1. WTF?
2. Leveling gives players the chance to learn the game's mechanics, how fights are done, how abilities works, how to work as a team, etc. If it's such a time sink, maybe you should go level your other classes...
3. What does this even have to do with the topic?

Numbers here referring to Churchill's post:
1. Was to someone else, see the above quote.
2. Was a well-stated opinion, whether in agreement or not.
3. Was dependent on three -- the practical example of the same line of thought.

[Churchill]

But then, hypothetically, why would one want to rush along to the endgame of a world that isn't appealing enough to make leveling fun in and of itself? To progress an nonexistent story or one with no basis in the actual world? To put myself through chores with far less freedom so I that I can be more prepared for something also of few choices?

Any solid game will have enjoyable leveling, or generally won't improve by any drastic margin upon ending leveling. I can squeeze out an addiction for otherwise pointless gear-farming from almost any MMO. I want what's FF in it, and that begins for me at the start. I'll enjoy it until it's gone, and then switch to endgame when it's ended.

That's not to say that I don't think leveling, like endgame, could be made more fun or memorable. I just don't consider it a prerequisite to a game that starts "50 levels in". It has enjoyability in itself, generally considered the goal of a game.

I'll preface with not all of this being claimed by you, but at some point in the thread.

Leveling is never fun though, it's either solo grind (WoW), AFK PL to 99 (FFXI now), form a static so your XP doesn't suck and you don't lose your mind (FFXI old) or get PL'd to 30/35, Raptors -> Natalan/hopefully get into a real spiritbond PT so that last 500k doesn't take 10 hours (FFXIV)

If the proposal was kill one crazy, wacky, incredibly fun monster and gain an entire level, sure, I'd be down for that. If the proposal is to force a pseudo-FFXI old type system where you did coordinated actions to kill stuff (which wasn't as much game design as poor game design*) then I'm not really interested. Most people couldn't skillchain, magic burst or gear properly and that's on top of the fact that such a coordinated system demanded specific jobs - meaning the brunt of your playtime was spent shouting or waiting for an invite. This is counter intuitive to any "game" because games are for fun, relaxation, or becoming the very best, like no one ever was.

The kind of memorable fights you want for leveling up, creative mechanics and gorgeous scenery are great and would be awesome if they could be realistically implemented into a game that wasn't gear dependent, player dependent, etc. If this was FFXIV Cloud Strikes Back at Cecil, sure. The more creative, complicated, etc that you get the more frustrating it can be as well. I spent 1.5h going from 45-50 on WAR, I spent 11h going from 43-50 on BRD. That's a huge disparity and complicating fight mechanics only lengthens the gap between a good and a bad party.

I like XIV's system. Grab a healer or two, a tank class, and start running around murdering stuff. Effortless, if I go afk the party isn't over, decent xp even if the party is terrible. It's even fun in a good group of people, and usually not migraine inducing in a bad group.

*XI's system was never "designed" to solely utilize skillchains and magic bursts, it was designed to be incredibly slow as everything in that game was designed to be an incredible time sink. Skillchain/Magic burst was developed by players as the only reasonable way to XP in such a terrible system. People were TP burning as early as late 2003, then again when Dynamis was released and then again when merits were released. ToAU was a godsend as you could begin TP burning as early as Lv50 and maintain it until Lv75.

[Firon]

1. WTF?
2. Leveling gives players the chance to learn the game's mechanics, how fights are done, how abilities works, how to work as a team, etc. If it's such a time sink, maybe you should go level your other classes...
3. What does this even have to do with the topic?

2. Yes the first part is true but it doesn't teach you how to play the job correctly.

[Hyrist]

If we're going to discuss how XP partying teaches you the game mechanics and adapts you to them - why are we seeking to gain experience in an environmental completely different than the events and battles to which we gain experience for?

This is what gets me when people complain bout 'XP Parties being AoE Fests.' Well, to be honest, even extended fights in field XP isn't actually gaining experience, beyond the normal pacing you would get duoing with someone.

If it's group dynamics you want to learn, it would be best to have training sessions that actually have objectives - that way, you might actually gain some experience while getting some experience. :heyiheardyoulike:

[Chardrizard]

Lol exp party doesnt prepare anyone for endgame, its the same as school. They only teaches you basic, but it entirely different lesson once u get out to endgame/worklife. That is why there are still many terrible players even if they level "legit" and there are also some that get PL'd the whole way and still play better than most, it comes back to the person itself.

[Tonkra]

Leveling is never fun though

Well for me personally.. leveling within a group is the most fun part of FFXIV.