Make healers DPS with four or five healing actions

[Aravell]

It's looking like the ultimate end goal for the job design team is to design only 5 distinct jobs (Tank[WAR]/Healer[WHM]/Melee[RPR]/Ranged[MCH]/Caster[SMN]) and make every job within the role different skins of that one design.

Jokes aside, with how they've been lately, that may actually be their end goal. It would be extremely easy to balance if they only had to balance for one playstyle in each role. Engagement for each job would also go up a lot since every job in a role is exactly the same and people just pick what skin they want. I guess we'll know for sure when we see the DRG rework and whether or not it's a RPR clone.

[Sebazy]

The problem that they face is that there's not a lot of MMO designers within Japan, Square has a near monopoly on Japanese MMOs.

With the way developer bonuses and commission tends to work, it's just a lot more lucrative for these designers to dive into a mobile gacha or gambling project than it is an MMO. It's been that way for years in Asia sadly with Konami being probably the saddest poster child for this trend.

IMO the best alternative for SE is to hire an outside firm on a consultancy level and simply buy in sheets of ideas from them. This gives them to final say on what makes the cut to avoid an uncontrolled shift in how the game feels and plays, but feeds their small team with a ton of fresh ready baked ideas that should be good to drop in and tweak. This isn't an uncommon or new thing, I worked on the PS2 port of Quake 3 at Bullfrog/EA for example.

If you ask me, SE should be going to someone akin to Mythic and offering an arrangement like this. The sooner the better.

[Connor]

With the way developer bonuses and commission tends to work, it's just a lot more lucrative for these designers to dive into a mobile gacha or gambling project than it is an MMO. It's been that way for years in Asia sadly with Konami being probably the saddest poster child for this trend.

IMO the best alternative for SE is to hire an outside firm on a consultancy level and simply buy in sheets of ideas from them. This gives them to final say on what makes the cut to avoid an uncontrolled shift in how the game feels and plays, but feeds their small team with a ton of fresh ready baked ideas that should be good to drop in and tweak. This isn't an uncommon or new thing, I worked on the PS2 port of Quake 3 at Bullfrog/EA for example.

If you ask me, SE should be going to someone akin to Mythic and offering an arrangement like this. The sooner the better.

Isn’t the issue for SE not the ideas themselves but the implementation? FFXIV (according to them anyway) has such messed-up code that even when they have an idea, they then come up against the problem of having to actually code/program that idea in a implementable format to the game. But then because it’s all tangled up with so many hold-overs from previous expansions / 1.0 (i.e class/job advancement), it’s extremely difficult for them to find new programmers who can actually implement these ideas in a workable format relative to the messed-up tangled code. That was my understanding of the situation anyway.

Basically it’s not the ‘design’ or ‘concept’ that they have issue with generating, it’s the actual programming of the game itself. I do also remember them saying something about how it’s extremely difficult to find programmers who even can work on ffxiv, because not only does it require a hard-to-find level of expertise, but also because that expertise needs to be adaptable enough to work with ffxiv’s weirdo code lol. It also explains why it’s so rare for the game to be experimental with new mechanics or features. Not that they can’t think of any new ideas; they just can’t think of a way to program it

[IDontPetLalas]

Isn’t the issue for SE not the ideas themselves but the implementation? FFXIV (according to them anyway) has such messed-up code that even when they have an idea, they then come up against the problem of having to actually code/program that idea in a implementable format to the game. But then because it’s all tangled up with so many hold-overs from previous expansions / 1.0 (i.e class/job advancement), it’s extremely difficult for them to find new programmers who can actually implement these ideas in a workable format relative to the messed-up tangled code. That was my understanding of the situation anyway.

Basically it’s not the ‘design’ or ‘concept’ that they have issue with generating, it’s the actual programming of the game itself. I do also remember them saying something about how it’s extremely difficult to find programmers who even can work on ffxiv, because not only does it require a hard-to-find level of expertise, but also because that expertise needs to be adaptable enough to work with ffxiv’s weirdo code lol. It also explains why it’s so rare for the game to be experimental with new mechanics or features. Not that they can’t think of any new ideas; they just can’t think of a way to program it

Are you really sure that it isn't job design that Square can't conceptualize? Because I'm not. They don't have many designers, someone needs to first think of of how a job should look and function and that is separate from an assessment of that would be actually implemented. That's likely entirely separate roles.

[SigmarrIrenesch]

We already have PF Scholars using their Aetherflow charges on Energy Drain only because "the fairy will handle healing dw", don't give that power to other healers.

But in all seriousness, I'd hate to see healers be turned into DPS but green and everyone can take care of themselves, why even have healers in the game at all at that point? The abudance of downtime while healing is unfortunate, but surely there is another way to tackle that.

[Shurrikhan]

We already have PF Scholars using their Aetherflow charges on Energy Drain only because "the fairy will handle healing dw", don't give that power to other healers.

How is 'that portion of the healers' resources would be excessive if used for healing, so then they won't be used for healing'... a reason not to allow the other jobs an alternative use for those resources that can't so easily be overcapped?

If the output-flexible tools wouldn't be used for healing because the remaining inflexible tools would more than handle all requirements anyways... the problem isn't that added flexibility; it's the healing requirements.

[Renathras]

Again, SB was the design that solved this. ... No matter how good you are/were in SB, you'd still have SOME GCDS used, because the ratio of damage incoming: healing OGCDs available was much better balanced. Now we've got far too many and we can cover everything a lot easier.

Agreed. The problem seems to be way too many oGCDs.

However, back then we ALSO had a more in-depth rotation that we managed to keep up with just fine,

...SCH had a more in-depth damage rotation.

WHM had Aero 3 (24 sec duration) but no Solace/Rapture/Misery (had the same amount of non-Stone GCDs as EW WHM has non-Glare GCDs).

AST had...uh...the exact same buttons, honestly. It was the healer that started the 1.5 sec nukespam + 30 sec DoT trend, wasn't it?

SCH had a more in-depth damage rotation. It was the only healer Job that did.

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Adding more damage buttons isn't a stopgap, since it doesn't address the problem.

Reducing the power and number of oGCD heals would directly address the problem. That's the actual solution. A secondary solution to that is tackling encounter design. Adding more damage buttons isn't a stopgap, since it's not a solution nor does it address the problem. All it does is make DPS players that want faster ques happy while alienating healers that don't want a DPS rotation and want to do actual healing.

[Shurrikhan]

Adding more damage buttons isn't a stopgap, since it doesn't address the problem.

If you had the exact same number of damage skills when healing GCDs were also far fewer, and thereby felt better apportioned to the portion of downtime than the current state does, then there is little reason to think that increasing the number of downtime actions in our current context of far more downtime would be ineffective.

Now, I'm in full agreement that we should be attempting to address the healing context as much as we can first and foremost, but there is going to still be casual and solo content, in which healers still deserved to feel like fleshed out classes instead of <15% useful skills and >85% redundancy. There is value in adding further downtime agency regardless of how much higher we can raise relative healing requirements in Dungeons, Alliance, Normals, Extremes, Savage, and side-content.

Agreed. The problem seems to be way too many oGCDs.

At least, proportionate to damage taken. If incoming damage were simply increased (and especially if, in that adjusted context, a far larger margin of oGCDs could be reserved without as much cost to overall output- or MP-efficiency), that would also do the trick.

I'd like to consolidate 1-2 per kit regardless just because (A) some of the over-specialized tools seem to make their target situations less engaging for their presence (essentially reducing the effective number of options and the considerations available to those situations) and (B) the functions of certain others could be more interestingly performed through intersections of other, prior tools (again, allowing for more/deeper points of consideration), but ultimately it's the ratio that matters.

[Renathras]

At least, proportionate to damage taken. If incoming damage were simply increased...

Then we run into the people opposed to changing damage profiles saying "Then Jonny Casual couldn't clear 4 mans". I've proposed increasing damage of encounters and been told that will either make causals unable to clear 4 mans (if we do it in all content) or make hardcore players bored when not doing Savages (if we only change high end encounters), making that option not allowed.

So the alternative is to prune oGCD heals back to SB levels. As much as people go on and on about healer damage kits in SB supposedly being amazing, the only one that was materially any different was SCH. WHM's transition from SB to ShB was minimal and AST's nonexistent, in terms of their damage suites. AST lost most of the depth of its card side game, WHM was otherwise improved in every way, and then all healers were showered with oGCDs in ShB and EW to the point of veteran healers being very bored.

The problem with pruining oGCDs is the people who like doing lots of damage and little healing and the people who like mapping out encounters for healing plans are both less happy...though this is probably a far smaller group to make unhappy than people who would be made unhappy by the more damage buttons, more healing (in all content), or more healing (in only high end content) suggestions. The healing plan people could be marginally satisfied anyway since there would still be some oGCDs and they could plan their GCDs instead. The only people who would really be unhappy would be the ones that like mostly dealing damage and just weaving an oGCD now and again to take care of bothersome healing they don't really want to be bothered with anyway. So pruning down oGCDs is probably the best option at this point.

That and the model I propose all the time that people are tired of, since it would interact with that to allow some option in playstyle for the people who still wanted to do that.

I'm not sure if 1-2 is the right number, but I think it would depend on the healer Job, as different ones have different feels and playstyles, and always have. WHM has always been more focused on GCD healing, for example, while SCH was on oGCD healing (that, at one time, was the weaker of the two) and mitigation to make its heals stretch farther.

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As for the soloing: Again, SB WHM and SB AST were what they are today - in terms of damage buttons. I do advocate for tuning back AST's clock to SB cards and giving EW WHM Aero 3/Banish, but that would functionally make them the same as they were in SB (in terms of damage suite). So people can't say SB was so good and not boring...but then reject those changes that basically bring those aspects back.

Again, SCH was the only healer, in terms of DPS kit, heavily impacted by the change from SB to ShB.

*for the people thinking of when WHM had Aero 2 and Aero 3 but think that Aero had an 18 sec duration; Aero 2's duration was made 30 sec in SB and Aero 3's was 24. Functionally we've substituted Aero 3 2.5x per min for Afflatus Solace/Rapture/Misery 4x per minute.
*for the people thinking of Cleric Stance and when WHM had Aero 1, 2, and 3; that was HW, not SB. Cleric in SB was just a CD like PoM and Aero 1 was removed in 4.0, the same time Aero 2 was made a direct upgrade, instant cast, and 30 sec duration.
*for the people thinking of Cleric Stance and when WHM had Aero 1, 2, and Thunder 1; that was Patch 2.0. ONLY patch 2.0; in 2.1 Thunder 1 was removed from a Cross-Class action and WHM didn't have it for the rest of ARR or the subsequent expansions.
*for the people thinking of Cleric Stance and when WHM had Aero 1, 2, 3, and Thunder 1; that was never true at any point in the game's entire history since Aero 3 wasn't added until HW (3.0) and Thunder 1 was removed in 2.1.

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REGARDLESS, the point:

More damage actions doesn't fix any of the problems. It arguably makes the whole situation worse overall, and isn't necessary (outside of a few very specific changes) for WHM and AST unless all the players saying they were engaging in SB via their damage kits are lying.

More damage actions for SCH might make sense, but how that fits into things now is anyone's guess.

But more damage actions overall isn't a solution since it doesn't address any of the problems other than high end players bored in 4 man dungeons, which is HARDLY the issue with healers right now since the problems overall run deeper and are more expansive, requiring solutions that address them, not ONLY high end players being bored.

[Alaray]

To be honest, I'd rather see something closer to removing the extremely powerful pool of OGCD's and increasing outgoing damage in content with an intent to have people use the full suite of abilities on the class. As, when I do enjoy healing in XIV, it is fairly exclusive to when everyone is dead/dying and I'm performing recovery - it's fun and more rewarding than hitting... whatever OGCD answer I have for the raid wide and continuing to hit Glare/Malefic/Broil/Sage Button.

Tanks already feel kind of bland after they reduced them to blue DPS, so I'd rather they don't do the same thing to the healer role. I'd much prefer the role to feel as it says on the tin to some degree, with skill expression coming from (for healing) being able to keep the party alive + do high amounts of damage by making correct decisions with the kit, the entire kit, and feeling like you are actually balancing the healing component of the role with damage throughput and actively making decisions to do one or the other pending on the situation.

And, gonna be honest - I don't care. About. Zero DPS healers. They will always exist. I'd rather the role be fun than the most boring healing experience I've ever had in any MMO/RPG/Multiplayer game than care that some people will perform bad. And in casual content, I genuinely don't care at all about a 0 DPS healer. It is what it is. The run's easy. And if it got under my skin so bad for some reason, I just quit that party.