Thoughts on Red Sands?

[Valence]

I've never been especially bothered by this personally, but I know that the lack of cover is going to drive a lot of complaints, both from melees and ranged, as seen in C9 already.

My own concern is that insanely long HoT area which I really, really don't like at least at first glance. This removes most options of going through any other path seeing how powerful this is. You can even imagine camping the enemy team right at the exit of the quicksands, and if they dare take another path to not fall right into your camp, you'll still have the huge regen advantage for 30s and they won't, and with that potency, perhaps I'm clueless, but I feel like it's a game changer on the level of a SCH LB or more.

I'd have been happier with this only activating during the environmental heat event or something (run to safety here or suffer through it)...

Edit: another concern being the sheer distance between the final checkpoints and the team spawn points, this seriously limits the defender's advantage, but perhaps on the other end will just end games that are already lost more quickly?

[Eisi]

Even though it looks insanely cool to me, I know from personal experience that I better wait and see how it actually plays.

The oasis HoT might turn this into the stalliest map so far, you just dip in once to get a 30 second HoT with a 7.5k heal per tick (which counterbalances the periodic harsh sun debuff dot completely). On the other hand the area is accessible to either team and it's relatively far away from the crystal lane. In addition it's no longer a factor if the push is close to the goal and if antlion or sabotender hazards are active which prevent access to the oasis and the pot in front.

I'm thrilled to see how this plays, it's another unique map that doesn't play the same tropes we've seen in the other maps and that comes with an interesting layout. I love how much they are willing to experiment, they are clearly having fun with PvP this expansion. At least this mode that is.

[Eisi]

It does look to me like a well timed elusive jump or gapcloser might be able to counter the draw-in effect of the antlion! Not sure tho.

[VoidsentStatus]

I've never been especially bothered by this personally, but I know that the lack of cover is going to drive a lot of complaints, both from melees and ranged, as seen in C9 already.

My own concern is that insanely long HoT area which I really, really don't like at least at first glance. This removes most options of going through any other path seeing how powerful this is. You can even imagine camping the enemy team right at the exit of the quicksands, and if they dare take another path to not fall right into your camp, you'll still have the huge regen advantage for 30s and they won't, and with that potency, perhaps I'm clueless, but I feel like it's a game changer on the level of a SCH LB or more.

I'd have been happier with this only activating during the environmental heat event or something (run to safety here or suffer through it)...

Edit: another concern being the sheer distance between the final checkpoints and the team spawn points, this seriously limits the defender's advantage, but perhaps on the other end will just end games that are already lost more quickly?

It's only a game changer for gold/plat and below rankings on EU and NA (I'm going to pretend OCE doesn't exist) because most of the general population is trash and doesn't know how to play with their team and burst a target properly. In Diamond+ rankings, killing someone within 3-4s is common so at best you have 7500 extra health assuming it ticks mid-burst. On JP, even in casuals people listen to calls and know how to burst so they won't have this issue. Your team should only be attacking one person at a time so multiple people having regen isn't important since they'll be high on health full mana likely anyway. Even if you have 4 people camping the quicksand, you take the other route and your team bursts whoever is alone on the crystal since they're likely going to be out of the line of sight/range of their teammates depending on exact locations.

[CidHeiral]

Looks fun but I'll reserve judgement until I actually play it. I'm sure the usual crew of whiners will be out in full force to blame the map for their performance.

[Valence]

It's only a game changer for gold/plat and below rankings on EU and NA (I'm going to pretend OCE doesn't exist) because most of the general population is trash and doesn't know how to play with their team and burst a target properly. In Diamond+ rankings, killing someone within 3-4s is common so at best you have 7500 extra health assuming it ticks mid-burst. On JP, even in casuals people listen to calls and know how to burst so they won't have this issue. Your team should only be attacking one person at a time so multiple people having regen isn't important since they'll be high on health full mana likely anyway. Even if you have 4 people camping the quicksand, you take the other route and your team bursts whoever is alone on the crystal since they're likely going to be out of the line of sight/range of their teammates depending on exact locations.

And you think even one single tick of 7500 additional health is a joke? Are you telling me that any heal (recuperate, healers, etc) in the game is a joke?

Having a quasi perma regen is not important? What? You know that's literally a hard counter to scholar dots? Or general AoE pressure? I understand that the meta is all about burst, and that's what matters the most, but you're dreaming if you think that a burst is always done in a perfect vacuum, deleting people one after another methodically with them not defending themselves or zooming away. Pvp is way messier than this idealistic view.

Also why would there be someone else alone on the crystal if the team stays together?

[VoidsentStatus]

*

I don't think, I know it's a joke. Go to Mana or Gaia on JP and get to Diamond rank and then come back to the forums and tell me you can't be bursted within 2-3s consistently for the entire match. There is no defending yourself against people that actually know what they're doing. There is no zooming away. On JP, by the time I hit Diamond, I was getting killed in <1s consistently. You will die before you can get an animation off after purify, you can horrid roar the entire team as DRG for a 50% damage reduction and still die before a polymorph wears off. Every single WHM LB, Every MNK LB, Every MCH LB will be combo'd with some other team member to full life you with 0 counterplay and you will have to deal with that potentially 10+ times in a match, consistently. When I say NA and EU is trash, I mean I can go into Casuals on Mana and find regular unranked people better than Gold and Plat. They play the game fundamentally different to the point other data regions look like they're toddlers playing with Lego's without a context of what they're supposed to build. You're just clanking pieces of a pvp kit against each other and having fun, but you don't understand the full potential of what you have yet.

That aside, If a WHM and AST healer can't save you, that heal ain't doing nothing. That heal isn't stopping a DRG+RDM LB full life of 3 people on your team. That heal isn't going to let you 3v5 the enemy team and not lose crystal progress. That doesn't stop the triple WHM LB's. That doesn't stop the Ninja rampaging with Death Link. That doesn't stop the double and triple kill Samurai's. It might help you barely live if you're 1v1'ing a MNK trying to LB combo you because the damage is delayed, but that's not going to stop high ranking people from being wiped and getting wipes to push the crystal. The majority of crystal movement isn't done in skirmishes, it's done once 2 or more people are dead, which happens mostly from LB's in high rankings. All they did was give you a pocket semi-nerfed AST on your team, so anyone used to bursting through AST heals isn't going to care about that HoT. If you're used to dealing with 2-3 healer comps, you're not going to care.

Yes, it's a counter to scholar dots, but scholar dots never did anything regardless damage wise.They're just padded aoe damage for the scorecard like the SMN aoe field.

And the reason someone has to be alone on the crystal is because that's the main route. Who cares about the enemy team camping your spawn if the crystal isn't moving. They're going to have to leave that healing area to be close enough to the crystal path to actively fight. At which point, either bursting efficiently or guard stalling can run out the clock as counters and the ranged members of your team will be able to go and pick up the HoT mid-fight while still contributing enough. It's mainly melee's that would be out of position from having to go and pick it up mid-fight.

[Valence]

Do you have footage and other sources that I could check out?

[VoidsentStatus]

Do you have footage and other sources that I could check out?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1934718357
Gaia Top 30 PoV
Format is:
time stamp - job of person who died - kill window/reason they died

12:30 match:
13:46 - Reaper 3s kill non-LB
14:02 - Astro full life non-LB
14:13 - Mch 2s kill non-LB
14:50 - DRG 2s kil non-LB
15:42 - Astro 2s kill non-LB
17:35 BLM 4s kill non-LB


23:10 match
24:43 sch 3s kill non-LB
25:46/47 mch 2-3s kill non-LB
26:33 drg 2-3s kill non-LB


31:08 match
31:23 pld 4s kill stun, purify, dead before guard can activate
31:49 sch 3s kill
32:01 astro 70-80% health 2s
33:19 astro whm+mch lb 1s kill
33:59 mch astro lb 1s kill
34:39 mch 2-3s kill non-LB
35:24 drg 2s kill with 4 ppl focusing during blood window
36:09 mch 2s kill from almost full health
36:28 astro 75% health gone during poly with only 4 ppl
36:46 pld either a mch drill or smn lb snapshot for damage through guard -> poly -> drg lb
37:29 mch brd bind -> pld stun to prevent guard if it was up -> drg lb full life.

It can depend on comps as pre-shielding and reaction time can change how often it happens, but will you deal with teammate coordination to set you up for uncounterable lb damage and you can be near or actually full life'd consistently in 2-3s through a match. I can make a list like this for NA but it's not going to go match for match with JP. You won't see something like Match 3 happen on NA unless you have like 3-4 top 30's on one team.

[Valence]

It's interesting but ultimately I don't see that many differences in what happens in the same top 30 on EU (can't speak for NA), since we also have callouts and primary targets/markers. Not being a top 30 myself but lower crystal, I certainly know the gap difference and I can see how some react way better to this than I do. Now then, it's also very possible that I'm underplaying the difference since I haven't experienced myself the JP environment at that level, so there is also that. I'd actually be willing to have the feedback from top 30 gamers from EU as well, although I've been into those games regularly and stuff is also very lethal on bursts.

Second game is actually underwhelming, since getting only 3 insta burst kills is very low imo, be it for JP or EU standards. First one looks like what I experience, last one was very lethal indeed. There is one thing you conveniently omit though, is all the non oneshot kills or near kills that happen, and the fact that they don't all get insta oneshot with MP left either. I'm really seeing both types, but I could totally see JP being overall a bit more lethal on bursts? Again, hard to tell on my end, would probably have to experience it fully, but the footage is definitely interesting to watch.

Now then I don't doubt that perhaps there is a difference in skill, you know, like SC2 had for a long time koreans dominating EU pros and similar examples, but the way you framed it made it sound like they're literally aliens or superhumans ("EU/NA is trash in comparison", "Eu/NA is like toddlers barely playing with the true potential of what we have"). Guess I'm very sensitive to absolutist binary statements, but who knows, maybe it's actually true.

Let's assume it is, it would also mean that balance of the game mode itself would by definition imply extremely different considerations and variables, and would also kinda go into making it almost like two different games altogether, which also means that even if my concerns for Red Sands are unfounded for JP, they could still be for NA/EU (if those are truly "trash"?).

I could also see the lower ranks being way more serious on JP as well, so again, don't take it as if I'm trying to minimize it or downplay everything.