Are We Really At The Point We Consider The Classic Relic Steps Engaging And "Fun"?

[ForsakenRoe]

Bloody not-Renthras name making me feel like I've suddenly got dyslexia

Maybe it is him, maybe it isn't. Last time I saw this account, it was a level 50 WHM, now it's 82. If even Ren has started levelling an alt in search of 'something to do in the game' then we really have hit rock bottom. I expect it's just another of you-know-who's though.

As for the EW relic 'grind', consider this: There is a Bokuto in the Gold Saucer for 100000 MGP. A 'joke weapon' glamour, as befits the location it's gained from. Senor Sabotender weapons are all like 200k MGP, iirc. It is more of a grind for these literal 'joke weapons', than it is to do an EW relic step. How did we get to this point? I get 'futureproofing' the content, but they've gone so far in 'futureproofing' it, they've only gone and bloody 'present-proofed' it too!

[Xirean]

It was unclear if you just disagreed with relics being something that wasn't accessible to everyone or you didn't like the general idea of anything at any point requiring something that not everyone would be willing to do. And to that point, where is there anything in this game that doesn't require us to do some special task for a reward? Even the MSQ asks that you do the MSQ tasks or you don't get experience the story that goes with it.

True, however you also can't read a book or watch a movie without actually doing that. The question is in regards to rewards. And on that front I don't like exclusives. Granted I understand the idea of difficult things having some sort of reward simply because they are hard. I do not value the notion that someone is special for having done the hard thing though. That gets into the territory of elitism which I consider toxic.

[TaleraRistain]

True, however you also can't read a book or watch a movie without actually doing that. The question is in regards to rewards. And on that front I don't like exclusives. Granted I understand the idea of difficult things having some sort of reward simply because they are hard. I do not value the notion that someone is special for having done the hard thing though. That gets into the territory of elitism which I consider toxic.

I don't agree with that either. I have all my ARR relics. I advocate to streamline the book step because that was a PITA and it would be nice if future players didn't have to put up with that bs. Any effort someone puts in in the future does not have any bearing on what I did myself to obtain something. My work is still there and can't be erased. I can still be proud of that.

For this relic, I just want a journey that's more than the journey I already take. I want some unique task that is well future-proofed and gives me that sense of having to do that task as opposed to this task to obtain it. Like right now I'm working on my Big Fish title. I might have to choose if I'm making this fishing window or running this daily roulette. It's a small choice, but the choice works to give the journey value. There is a *small* choice with current relics where I need to decide if I'm spending tomes on relic pieces or tome components for my potions, but it's an inconsequential choice since it's not using a limited currency so the option is always there to obtain more.

[Saraide]

Can someone please answer the mystery if this is actually a Ren alt, or a troll alt?

At first the threads from this account were so insane I thought it had to be someone making fun of him. But I haven't seen him post on the Ren account that this isn't him. So....is it?

If this is a troll alt, well, doing a great job of making me doubt lol.

I have a bridge to sell to you.

[Rychu]

Because they were extremely repetitive and boring. As far as I can remember, nobody liked doing DR 15 times and nobody liked running crystal tower 20 times. Running old dgn's for low rate drops.

You were forced to do these things and don't get me started in light farming.

The classic relic steps were a massive choir that all it does is make you hate the content you're doing.

I think Bozja handled it the really bad as well because though it allowed you to get the items you needed in SF, it let you get them from old fates that were 100x more faster, that's just terrible design because all that tells you is you have to do fates.

Seriously...I honestly think people have gaslighted themselves into thinking this is fun game design. Really sorry to say that but it's true.

Why do we keep asking for old things and not new things? We as a community keep asking for new things but turn back around and ask for something old while simultaneously complaining SE doesn't change their formula.

Endwalker relic steps were a result of people complaining about the grind and now it's extremely successful because we can make our own fun by gathering tomes anyway we like while progressing the relic steps.

Endwalker made this relic extremely future proof compared to the older relics like gathering lights.

So even if you don't like endwalker solution.

Why do you ask for the old rather than asking for the new? Nobody likes a massive grind, ask for engaging content, not another snooze fest 24man grind. Do you REALLY want to do the neir raids 16 times? I doubt we do.

The difference between the old way and the new way is the sense of community. Endwalker's version is perfect as a back burner project to passively do while you do other things which is great when you want something shiny but don't want to put in work for it; however, when the content is new and everyone is farming tomes to get the weapons on their main classes it is isn't different enough from what would do normally.

Let's think about it this way, you can absolutely do any of the relic weapon grinds by yourself and not talk to a single person and it'll be a boring slog through and through. But the main advantage to the old relic weapon grinds is that adding more people makes it not only easier but just more enjoyable to spend your time doing. Stormblood and Shadowbringers especially have the benefit of being able to put together MASSIVE groups to heavily reduce the grind and also to chat and make memories with. We often forget because the dev team tries to make the game as solo player friendly as possible but we are in an MMO and the best moments we can have (besides the msq) comes from our interactions with other players. You just don't get that with Manderville.

[Jeeqbit]

nobody liked doing DR 15 times

I think that was excessive. I heard of the achievement hunters doing it something like 270 times, which is insane. Certain steps like that should be one-offs so you don't have to repeat it too much for alt jobs, or the amount of times reduced overall.

I think Bozja handled it the really bad as well because though it allowed you to get the items you needed in SF, it let you get them from old fates that were 100x more faster, that's just terrible design because all that tells you is you have to do fates.

I did enjoy doing it all in Bozja/Zadnor instead of doing old content, because it was new and also varied. I did Cluster farming which actually got me all those items you get from dungeons and this was a social experience. I farmed Skirmishes and CEs and CLL for certain other items, which was fun because it was varied and the mechanics actually threatening, often leaving up to 98% of the people there dead and having the fun of being cheered on. Any of the ones with lasers for example, the famous chocobo one, the ivalice boss and a few others.

Another reason it was fun was because it was social. We'd party up in CEs and often kept the party to farm Skirmishes and talked to eachother in that party and sometimes /shout. There was also /shout or /yell coordination in CLL. Let's compare that to Island Sanctuary which is not the least bit social, Manderville relics that at best you are going to have silent runs of the same Expert roulette dungeon, or Variant dungeons which could be done in a party but you can just solo them.

Why do we keep asking for old things and not new things?

Look what new things we got this expansion. Island Sanctuary and variant dungeons. Which many would regard as boring and lacking in social interaction compared to Eureka/Bozja.

I have no problem with them trying new things. The point is really to point them into a direction that worked previously. Whatever the 7.0 "Eureka/Bozja" is, it doesn't have to be the same. In fact, I wouldn't expect it to be. Eureka was exploring an island with out of control elements. Bozja was about a war. Dawntrail might have neither of those things, so the mechanics and concept might need to be different in a lot of ways.

It could be about sailing to different islands to do things, seeing as we are a pirate now. The point is just pushing them in a direction that worked for social interaction and actually fun and varied battles that were actually threatening, and they can innovate from there.

Endwalker relic steps were a result of people complaining about the grind and now it's extremely successful because we can make our own fun by gathering tomes anyway

We can create our own fun now by:

• farming expert roulette or hunt trains like we probably already do to reach the weekly cap.
• farming pvp (which there is already a reason to because of series rewards).
• farming variant (which there is already a reason to so you get the achievement mount).

Which effectively makes the relic a free weapon for doing nothing.

[Korbei]

If the current relics needed Poetics instead of Causality, I'd just go back to Eureka.

[ForteNightshade]

Because there's no satisfying that mentality. Ultimate players will say anything older than the current ultimate weapon "doesn't mean anything because it's easy now". No matter the difficulty, it's just a constantly shifting "well that piece of content means nothing now because too many people did it"
You can't satisfy those people when everyone wants content to be just easy enough for them to do it but hard enough to gate everyone else. It's just an outdated and flawed way of thinking about content and game design that MMO players seem to hang into.

This myth really needs to die. Are there people like this? Of course. The vast majority of Ultimate players don't give a hoot when you cleared. We don't like the content becoming easier for our own enjoyment not because "oh no, the dreaded CASUALS will be able to do it!!!" I love UCoB, and it saddens me that I cannot enjoy it at its peak anymore because its been power crept into oblivion. That doesn't mean I'm suddenly looking down on others who got their clears in EW. Most raiders have that same mentality.

People like to show off their accomplishments, be it completing a difficult challenge or putting together a cute outfit. That doesn't mean they care one way or another if someone else has it. Just that it took an effort to achieve. Hence why Achievements/Trophies are so popular. It isn't the supposed rarity they care about but the effort. The relic being reduced to a welfare weapon you get by turning in your spare uncapped tomes you got for your roulette chores takes away that effort, thus making it no longer an achievement worth talking about for a lot of people.

Put it this way, in Baldur's Gate, there are a handful of bosses you can defeat in various ways. Everyone knows each of the methods now that the game has been out but it's still fun to talk about how you approached the battle: Did you RP them to death? Did you fight them (they have huge HP pools)? Did you figure out the gimmick? That conversation doesn't change regardless if it's the first person killing them or the 100,000th. What would change is if everyone installed a mod that let you one shot them or auto select the best dialogue to guarantee they die. Now there's no effort or cool gimmick involved to these challenges. You essentially "won" by showing up. Nobody would talk about these bosses in that became the standard way to win. It's no longer something cool.

That's the EW relics in a nutshell. You were handed a cool weapon while barely lifting a finger. Which, in turn, makes people care much less about them.

[CNitsah]

That's exactly what people want. It's an MMO, saying something has "value" or "should mean something" is just a code word for "I want it, but it should be exclusive enough other people can't have it".
It's how MMO players are hard wired.

"How dare you ask for mmo content in your mmo?" that how you sound. Of course mmo are supposed to have content meant to last over time. Isn't it your kind that want things that used to ask effort for nothing in here?

[Raikai]

Imo none of the methods are/were actually good. They need to experiment with something different next time.