4gamer Interview

[Zairava]

Personally, I think the relic grind was too much but now it's too little. I think I'd prefer ARR with it's own fight at the end but overall the grind should be less tedious.

Give me an exploratory zone where I can chip away at it and make me fight a (4/8 man?) boss at the end for the final material so it means something. Doesn't have to be a super hard boss. Just don't make it mindless like it is now. And don't make it where you can farm stuff outside of that content. That's just counter-productive, honestly.

At least personally, I'd like to get gatherers and crafters involved in the next exploratory zone as well, where they can have their own path.

I think I'd like another Heavensward style relic questline if they don't include it in an exploratory zone. Making the overworld more alive, along with putting the new dungeons, raids and trials and some of the old ones (perhaps even the variant ones) thrown into the mix. Just don't make the light farm, if included, abysmal like they did when that was launched, I'm still thankful to this day I joined after the fact for that stage lol

[Lauront]

Yeah...they are looking at this data and are unfortunately likely using the EW completion rates as justification for their oversimplification of the relic grind. To me, that is learning the wrong lesson. Dawntrail will definitely make or break this game for me at this point. For multiple reasons, this one among them.

And the cynic in me thinks he knows this is wrong-headed and yet is pressing ahead regardless with the "data" as an ad hoc justification.

[Zairava]

And the cynic in me thinks he knows this is wrong-headed and yet is pressing ahead regardless with the "data" as an ad hoc justification.

I refuse to believe the man who somehow managed to resurrect FFXIV from the dead honestly didn't see the effortless relic acquisition of this expansion being by far the most obtained by players coming and unironically thinks that removing something that portion of the playerbase enjoyed doing at their own pace is somehow a good thing. Hard coping? Maybe. It gets a little hard to believe that he has our best interests with relics in mind when we consider what he's been saying in interviews about it lately..

[Aldath]

Doesn't affect me, I cleared the tier yonks ago. I could stop doing reclears and it wouldn't affect me whatsoever. But I do find it concerning, how 'dead' the game feels now, because I cannot imagine it's going to go any direction but 'worse' as time goes on. Maybe they're relying entirely on the Fall Guys event to keep people around

The longevity of content in a story focused MMO is an issue they MUST tackle sooner than later, it will become increasingly bad as time goes by. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this the expansion with the most short-lived endgame content? As far as I understand it fell into the category of "dead content" earlier than before.

Look, I say this from my perspective as a sprout who is about to lose his leaves. Yesterday I completed the Omega Raid series in Primal, but each DF queue as a DPS took about 30 minutes. I know Healers and Tanks have shorter queues, but it's the first time content queues take me more than 15 minutes. It also happened with some SB Trials. Thing is, we won't have DF for said content; new players who purchase DT and want to make blue quests and try stuff will find themselves, probably, in a worse situation than the one I'm in right now. ESPECIALLY for the ones who want to try old EX/Savage as they are in a limbo: no one wants to do PF for older stuff, but no one DFs for it either. Yes, I'm part of a Discord for older stuff, it's a coin flip if people will even want to join and judging by the low amount of PF for CURRENT endgame content, I bet older will be even less appealing.

I might have the luck to arrive fresh to Dawntrail and I'll be able to enjoy the content at the same pace as the rest of the people, but buying the new expansion, being forced into hours of older stuff you can't even properly play with others, only to arrive to the new one and find out that it isn't much different? Now that sucks and feels scummy. I am glad we have AT THE VERY LEAST DS for dungeons, but the fact they don't even plan to do it for older 8 man? Way to go SE...

[Zairava]

The longevity of content in a story focused MMO is an issue they MUST tackle sooner than later, it will become increasingly bad as time goes by. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this the expansion with the most short-lived endgame content? As far as I understand it fell into the category of "dead content" earlier than before.

Look, I say this from my perspective as a sprout who is about to lose his leaves. Yesterday I completed the Omega Raid series in Primal, but each DF queue as a DPS took about 30 minutes. I know Healers and Tanks have shorter queues, but it's the first time content queues take me more than 15 minutes. It also happened with some SB Trials. Thing is, we won't have DF for said content; new players who purchase DT and want to make blue quests and try stuff will find themselves, probably, in a worse situation than the one I'm in right now. ESPECIALLY for the ones who want to try old EX/Savage as they are in a limbo: no one wants to do PF for older stuff, but no one DFs for it either. Yes, I'm part of a Discord for older stuff, it's a coin flip if people will even want to join and judging by the low amount of PF for CURRENT endgame content, I bet older will be even less appealing.

I might have the luck to arrive fresh to Dawntrail and I'll be able to enjoy the content at the same pace as the rest of the people, but buying the new expansion, being forced into hours of older stuff you can't even properly play with others, only to arrive to the new one and find out that it isn't much different? Now that sucks and feels scummy. I am glad we have AT THE VERY LEAST DS for dungeons, but the fact they don't even plan to do it for older 8 man? Way to go SE...

It can kind of depend how you look at it, the closest this game ever got to the state we're currently in was Heavensward, because outside of hard-core raiding (which was a disaster during that time period until Creator) there was essentially nothing since Diadem flopped not once, but both times (They finally succeeded with Eureka in Stormblood), and pvp was still experimental at the time. The biggest benefit you could say it had elsewise was that the relic actually had steps to it, but I don't remember the exact patch the anima weapon started. Palace of the Dead was added later in the expansion (and had the the benefit of being new and fresh).

Arguably Heavensward can be considered worse in terms of the amount of content released compared to Endwalker's.

If Endwalker's place was swapped with Heavensward? It would likely be regarded as horrible post MSQ due to content longevity being thinner than a sheet of paper, and, again, no field zone to soak up time.

[Jeeqbit]

I don't really know why he is thinking of younger players. Obviously he is forward-thinking and wants to grow the game, but anyone younger is obviously not like the rest of their generation anyway, or they wouldn't have got into the game.

I understand that he believes younger players don't want anything to be hard to achieve, but there have always been young people that want a goal to work towards when not learning or working. We could argue that is part of the attraction of the hugely popular mobile games industry. Something to distract you for a bit each day as you work to achieve something, such as leveling up or garden sims. Well you can do exactly that with relics. In Bozja you could do exactly 1 CE a day, or 10, as many as you like.

It's all about balance. Some things should be easy to get (for example, crafted gear which is decent for any content they are likely to do). But some things should require effort, otherwise what's the point? Should we create an RPG where you kill all the bosses and enemies in 1 hit and are invincible? Is he saying that younger people need every game to be an idle RPG (which is where the game plays itself and you just observe it and feel accomplished as it progresses for you)?

When it's a tomestone grind, if you actually grinded them on purpose, you probably either did Expert roulette (which is extremely boring to farm due to the lack of variety) or hunt trains. If you didn't grind them on purpose then the relic was even less effort than a crafted weapon, depriving people of a key midcore content that kept them logging in.

[Lauront]

I think it's a bit odd that he seems to believe that 'younger gamers' don't have the attention span to play FFXIV. The game demands a lot of attention and commitment to make it through the MSQ's since practically every bit of content in the game is locked behind that. I have a strong hunch that the same crowd who would prefer the instant gratification of jumping right into a match in Fortnite or Call of Duty are highly unlikely to ever pick up this game in vast numbers.

It does reveal how overly concerned Yoshi-P is with people who do not currently play the game as opposed to those who actually do, I suppose.

Especially since in prior interviews he's gone on record saying the following...

Jeux Online: What do you think about the future of the MMORPG genre as whole? The 1st gen and 2nd gen MMORPG audiences have gotten older and the newer generation doesn’t seem that interested in MMOs. So, where do you think the future of MMO lies?

Naoki Yoshida: First and foremost, with Final Fantasy XIV, we do believe that this game is at the maybe tail-end of the 2nd generation of MMORPGs. I believe that World of Warcraft was sort of the start of that 2nd generation. Having that kind of strong content-driven MMOs defined the MMORPGs of that generation. With Final Fantasy XIV, I believe this is the newest game within that generation of MMORPGs, but I also feel that we are coming to the very late part of that 2nd generation. So, I feel that there probably won’t be another MMO that is similar to what has already come out.

Even if Final Fantasy XIV were to release further expansions, maybe 3 or 4 more expansions, we don’t believe that FFXIV would evolve into the 3rd generation of MMORPGs.

We would just continue to pursue and perfect what we have so that we aim to become the ultimate MMORPG within our current generation.

In terms of the 3rd generation of MMORPGs, I believe that we would need to have something design that is fundamentally different.

I think there is a very important element, a keyword almost. The younger generation is one thing, but even with those existing gamers that have become older, there is really not a difference between those two parties. Both types of people have become very busy and there are so many different forms of entertainment, a lot of smart devices being out and available and it is more difficult to carve the time to sit down and do content. Previously, we wouldn’t have to worry about it because there weren’t so much distractions that would take us away, we had the time to sit down and do this sort of time-consuming content. But nowadays, when you start playing a game, you might get an email, you might get a text message, friends might want you to go see the latest movie or go out for a drink ; there are so many different things and so much materialistic objects that can distract you.There are all vying for your time.

You may be aware that worldwide we’ve seen games of the MOBA genre or Battle Royale games becoming very popular, games that people can jump in whenever they want, have that sort of instant gratification, and then quit whenever they want. I think that’s a very attractive set-up for the modern gamer or any gamer in this current time basically. And we feel that for MMOs of the next generation, it is important that we capitalize on that. It is something that’s a key element.

We feel that those are very important elements to incorporate if we were to bring a game that moves us into the next generation of the genre. But if we were to divulge more details, I think we would be giving hints to our competitors on our company’s ideas so I think I’m gonna stop right there.

https://ffxiv.jeuxonline.info/actual...ir-mmo#english

Games like Fortnite and Overwatch are vying for dedicated, online audiences like MMOs do - as a traditional MMO creator how does that make you feel?

Naoki Yoshida: This is happening because the video game industry continuously evolves. Just taking this example, traditional JRPGs are based on turn-based games. and especially for the youth, they feel that it's quite outdated, they don't really understand.. Talking about the younger generation, someone up to the age of 25, because prior to the time they were born, there was relatively high-spec hardware for their gaming experiences - their character is rendered very realistically and they can actually control the characters directly - by pressing one button, the character will punch the enemies or fire the gun...

That's why we don't feel those types of games are a threat because the basic game is designed completely differently. Because the audience that's playing Overwatch and Fortnite are probably in their 20s, they're a younger audience. If that younger audience becomes our main audience for FF14 or our current MMORPG, then we may need to cater to that new audience and create the excitement that they want from a game. We feel that FF14 doesn't really need to play that role. It should be the next generation of MMOs. But if we want to make an MMO which doesn't require targeting, that would be really difficult. We'd probably need to make some drastic changes to the game where there are text chats, but people are using voice chat and you can choose your play style, you can quit anything, you can come back any time... That kind of generation and time will definitely come, but personally speaking it looks very difficult so I don't want to do it!

https://www.eurogamer.net/final-fant...-proofing-mmos

Whereas their current design ethos does seem to be to reorient FF14 along the lines of catering to such players. But I doubt that doing it this way is going to even appeal to them because gamers who want such games are already spoilt for choice, so this just seems to be designed to appeal to people with the log in and collect reward mentality... and even then, there's better games for that.

I don't really know why he is thinking of younger players. Obviously he is forward-thinking and wants to grow the game, but anyone younger is obviously not like the rest of their generation anyway, or they wouldn't have got into the game.

I understand that he believes younger players don't want anything to be hard to achieve, but there have always been young people that want a goal to work towards when not learning or working. We could argue that is part of the attraction of the hugely popular mobile games industry. Something to distract you for a bit each day as you work to achieve something, such as leveling up or garden sims. Well you can do exactly that with relics. In Bozja you could do exactly 1 CE a day, or 10, as many as you like.

Yes, and at a certain point a game needs to be confident in what it is and what it offers. He's really generalising far, far too much, IMO. We were all new to MMOs and how they function at some point. Some of us just liked what they are and stuck around, and I don't see it being that different for 'younger' players. It will appeal to some more than others and should be able to sell itself on its strengths. They're not for everyone, and that is really not an issue. By watering down the identity of the product too much you risk both alienating your current playerbase and delivering on something that's too lacking in its own identity to stand out next to better specialised competitors. The problems he mentions are the sort you could easily address by having alternate relic acquisition paths, which they didn't pull off too well with Bozja but it would just take a few tweaks to achieve it, as opposed to ditching it altogether.

[Zairava]

Especially since in prior interviews he's gone on record saying the following...





https://ffxiv.jeuxonline.info/actual...ir-mmo#english



https://www.eurogamer.net/final-fant...-proofing-mmos

Whereas their current design ethos does seem to be to reorient FF14 along the lines of catering to such players. But I doubt that doing it this way is going to even appeal to them because gamers who want such games are already spoilt for choice, so this just seems to be designed to appeal to people with the log in and collect reward mentality... and even then, there's better games for that.

I don't know what age honestly has to do with anything, either. Things change, sure, but preferences differ from person to person, there's a reason why game genres live on.

According to him, I'm in the "younger" bracket, and I would adore this becoming more like an mmo again (Stormblood when it was current perfectly fit my vibe). If I wanted to play a single player RPG, I would just go play a single player RPG, which, by the way, would likely have more engaging and interactive combat too. I want to earn things not be spoonfed it because I decided to log on.

[Jeeqbit]

We were all new to MMOs and how they function at some point. Some of us just liked what they are and stuck around, and I don't see it being that different for 'younger' players. It will appeal to some more than others and should be able to sell itself on its strengths. They're not for everyone, and that is really not an issue. By watering down the identity of the product too much you risk both alienating your current playerbase and delivering on something that's too lacking in its own identity to stand out next to better specialised competitors.

I admit I did not like what MMORPGs used to be, despite playing them. But this game solved the major issues with them.

• Being asked to kill 100 enemies for a quest or extremely low RNG on an item drop.
• Taking forever to form a group (Duty Finder saves us hours).
• Taking forever to travel somewhere when a group is waiting for you. Now you can teleport real quick.
• Having content that is difficult to leave for hours. The content should be able to last hours, but not pressure you to stay for hours. In this game, you can leave trials/raids after 10 minutes when the pull is over, a dungeon after 16 minutes, and you could exit Eureka or Bozja almost any time at all.

These improvements to the genre were a huge help to my ability to look after myself while playing. They don't need to go overboard with it to the point the game plays itself.

[Lauront]

I admit I did not like what MMORPGs used to be, despite playing them. But this game solved the major issues with them.

• Being asked to kill 100 enemies for a quest or extremely low RNG on an item drop.
• Taking forever to form a group (Duty Finder saves us hours).
• Taking forever to travel somewhere when a group is waiting for you. Now you can teleport real quick.
• Having content that is difficult to leave for hours. The content should be able to last hours, but not pressure you to stay for hours. In this game, you can leave trials/raids after 10 minutes when the pull is over, a dungeon after 16 minutes, and you could exit Eureka or Bozja almost any time at all.

These improvements to the genre were a huge help to my ability to look after myself while playing. They don't need to go overboard with it to the point the game plays itself.

Indeed, it (and really, WoW as well) already eliminated the sort of features that would only be associated with grindier MMOs that are comparatively more niche in the west. That type of design wasn't too appealing to me either.

I don't know what age honestly has to do with anything, either. Things change, sure, but preferences differ from person to person, there's a reason why game genres live on.

According to him, I'm in the "younger" bracket, and I would adore this becoming more like an mmo again (Stormblood when it was current perfectly fit my vibe). If I wanted to play a single player RPG, I would just go play a single player RPG, which, by the way, would likely have more engaging and interactive combat too. I want to earn things not be spoonfed it because I decided to log on.

Yeah, and then you have the fact that the game has a sub cost attached to it that most games don't have. You could argue microtransactions and DLCs have become more prevalent but I avoid games which are excessive in that respect anyway, like many people do, and it is pretty easy for me to find single player RPGs which offer a better experience, be it in story and character depth or in their combat. Even if there's group statistical tendencies, I fail to believe that you cannot find a sizeable enough portion in that group who'd actually be interested in the game as it was just a couple of expansions ago gameplay-wise; I'd definitely agree on SB being a high point for me. Banal inferences like "more people did this" after you made it that much easier to obtain a relic don't prove that it's a good decision for making the game more fun to play. It's just another tomestone weapon at that point. And it reminds me of defences I've come across of SMN's current design.

The WoW exodus offered them a bumper crop of new players, so my question if I were them would be why did they not stick around? I somehow doubt the answer is going to be because the game wasn't letting me earn stuff automatically, when that has been the current relic design path for EW...