Excessive body checks in p12s

[Daffidoodles]

I\\'m not a fan of the amount of body checks in p12s. Progging the fight is effectively limited to how fast the slowest player can learn. Mechanics like superchain 1, para 2 & 3, both classical concepts, both calorics, and pangenesis are all instant wipes if even one person doesn\\'t perform the mechanic correctly. I would much rather have a system of tighter dps checks, but more personal punishment for people who fail mechanics, maybe for a partner or light party as well to provide an opportunity to recover and practice additional mechanics.

I don\\'t think a ton of body checks are a good gameplay experience either. If seven players understand and can properly execute a mechanic, but an 8th player consistently struggles, there\\'s more of an incentive to kick/harass/bully the struggling player versus learning from their own mistake. Hopefully the raids in Dawntrail allow for more personal accountability instead of instant wipes.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Oh yeah, the party wipes on almost every mechanic fail are ridiculous. May as well not have an enrage, since it effectively does nothing. It definitely has reduced the ability to limp along in prog and see mechanics.

[Kaliesto]

and this is one of the reasons why I will never do current savage, its not fun.

Savage feels like I'm going into a 2nd job after I left my 1st job for the day.

[Saraide]

Technically classical 1 and 2 are not insta wipes if someone stands incorrectly. You can sacrifice yourself and eat both shapes if you adjust your position slightly when your partner messes up.

[KuroMaboroshi]

For a static, this is a management problem:
You will always have some better and worse players in a group, people who learn at different speeds, and excell or struggle at different types of mechanics. Knowing that ahead of time is part of how you assemble your team. This means taking into account both learning speed, consistency, and everyone's tolerance for "waiting for others" during prog. If such things then end up causing issues during prog, then the team was poorly assembled, and that's on the team, not the game.

However, I can easily see how in PF, it can be quite frustrating to be "held back" by a single slower learner, as that is an environment where controlling your team is not possible.

As for solutions, on the fight design side, sadly there are only one of two options:
Either the fight is really punishing on mechanics, ensuring that only teams where everyone knows what they are doing pass.
Or a fight can be lenient on mechanics, allowing you to necro on by ressing failing players, but then have a very challenging enrage that basically is ensured to kill you if mistakes were made along the way by individuals.
Everything else would only lead to bad players being carried through content by better players, which would lead to people trying to sneak into higher prog points in PF and other such griefing behaviour, causing more strife.

The reason why the battle design team at the moment mostly goes with the first option, I'd suspect, is twofold:
First, it makes for a much more challenging experience for the World First Race. Just seeing a new mechanic on race prog is hugely valuable, as you can already start theorycrafting the next mechanic while you are still working on the previous one. Including more "hard" fail points ensures teams don't see ahead as much and extends the race.
Second, it keeps the fights relevant for longer. As anyone can attest, increasing gear level makes short work of most enrage checks even after just a few weeks. If enrage was the main difficulty point of a fight, then said difficulty evaporates within weeks. Hard-fail mechanics on the other hand will remain relevant no matter the iLevel (hence the heavy use of vulnerability debuffs in Savage).

[SamsonBlacke]

Just have everyone learn the mechanic. not that hard.

[PredatoryCatgirl]

Just have everyone learn the mechanic. not that hard.

Nothing's hard when you oversimplify it. See? Watch.

Just pass the test. Not that hard.

and this is one of the reasons why I will never do current savage, its not fun.

Savage feels like I'm going into a 2nd job after I left my 1st job for the day.

This is exactly why I don't do it as well. Got sick and tired of the latest EX because, despite knowing every mech up to my current prog point, other people kept screwing it up, and we wiped. Multiplayer puzzle games are just a headache.

[SamsonBlacke]

exactly, you get it.

[Maltothoris]

Technically classical 1 and 2 are not insta wipes if someone stands incorrectly. You can sacrifice yourself and eat both shapes if you adjust your position slightly when your partner messes up.

Well that may be true but you got palladan ray right after the orbs go off so chances are that it would be a wipe right after.

[Raikai]

The solution would be just making body count a rare thing.

I honestly never came across a player that enjoys that kind of mechanic appearing so much and understandably as it does not have a single benefit for a prog learning experience. Also, this kind of thing - when is due to appear - is better suited for the late portions of a fight. It's extremely frustrating to see those early on, like Golbez' knockback/soak/flares mechanic that can't be survived if one player died in the previous mech.