How can we save dungeons and varient.

[VerdeLuck]

no. this is the optimal dungeon design

you will run it every other day in expert coin flip roulette and be happy, until the next one comes out 5 months later.

Yeah this is actually the optimal dungeon design. Even if you added extra side paths, no one would take them. The community forced the current dungeon design by just beelining it for the most efficient path every time.
Constant fights about how much to pull? Game decides for you and you just pull 2 packs and a wall stops you from pulling more.
The constant path of least resistance taking just cements the idea there's only 1 true path and then there's the one noobs take and get flamed, so just remove the other ones to prevent the flame.

[Rufalus]

Yeah this is actually the optimal dungeon design. Even if you added extra side paths, no one would take them.

What if it wasn't a choice of shortest linear path or longer linear path.

It could be a wider area that doesn't have an always optimal route, due to dynamically changing things like the movement of patroling mobs and trap activation. So you go in and make decisions in the moment based on the moving pieces of a dynamic area. Each run can be a bit different with rng and time-based things.

Removing everything can't be optimal design. It got so streamlined that it's questionable whether it was worth creating them in the first place.

[VerdeLuck]

What if it wasn't a choice of shortest linear path or longer linear path.

It could be a wider area that doesn't have an always optimal route, due to dynamically changing things like the movement of patroling mobs and trap activation. So you go in and make decisions in the moment based on the moving pieces of a dynamic area. Each run can be a bit different with rng and time-based things.

Removing everything can't be optimal design. It got so streamlined that it's questionable whether it was worth creating them in the first place.

Aurum Vale has that and literally every single run everyone hugs the wall because it's the shortest path. If you are a tank and don't hug the wall you will get 3 angry party members.
Face it, constantly chasing the path of least resistance has filed the edges off this game for the last 10 years. Why put effort into side paths as a dev if no one sees them? Why add alternate specs if everyone just runs the meta one? Why give gear variety if everyone just looks up the BiS and uses that?

[Rufalus]

Aurum Vale has that and literally every single run everyone hugs the wall because it's the shortest path. If you are a tank and don't hug the wall you will get 3 angry party members.
Face it, constantly chasing the path of least resistance has filed the edges off this game for the last 10 years. Why put effort into side paths as a dev if no one sees them? Why add alternate specs if everyone just runs the meta one? Why give gear variety if everyone just looks up the BiS and uses that?

That's not quite the same as the stuff I said. This game has never had dynamically changing dungeons that can't be fully pre-planned. I meant stuff you need to react to on the fly.

Deep dungeon actually does have a lot of things that normal dungeons lack, but it's visually boring and has uniform square rooms. I think the most engaging kind of dungeon design would be a mix of DD randomised stuff and normal dungeon scenic segments.

Your stuff about removing gear variety just sounds like an argument that RPGs shouldn't exist. I don't think options should be streamlined out of existence. MMORPGs should have some degree of individual choices and the freedom to not play meta. But to each their own

[TaleraRistain]

What if it wasn't a choice of shortest linear path or longer linear path.

It could be a wider area that doesn't have an always optimal route, due to dynamically changing things like the movement of patroling mobs and trap activation. So you go in and make decisions in the moment based on the moving pieces of a dynamic area. Each run can be a bit different with rng and time-based things.

Removing everything can't be optimal design. It got so streamlined that it's questionable whether it was worth creating them in the first place.

This is a great idea for solo content and could definitely be a way to flesh out Variant. But that's never going to fly with other people. This community always finds the "one true way" to do things and then as Verde mentioned will flame or kick anyone who doesn't comply. The only way to have complete freedom is if you the player are the only decision maker.

[Bonoki]

Aurum Vale has that and literally every single run everyone hugs the wall because it's the shortest path. If you are a tank and don't hug the wall you will get 3 angry party members.
Face it, constantly chasing the path of least resistance has filed the edges off this game for the last 10 years. Why put effort into side paths as a dev if no one sees them? Why add alternate specs if everyone just runs the meta one? Why give gear variety if everyone just looks up the BiS and uses that?

I prefer the illusion of choice over no choice at all. In Aurum Vale, you could fight more mobs to get exp, branch off to get a chest, (which is their fault for not putting the minion in that chest). Also it's just more fun to think you are cheesing the system by dodging patrols than be forced into them. It also makes dungeons feel bigger than they really are like Amdapor Keep's courtyard.

[sindriiisgaming]

You are wrong. I enjoy dungeons. I enjoy deep dungeons A LOT. I enjoy variant dungeons a lot. I loved going through them several times to complete the achievements to grab an easy mount. This post is about how YOU feel and thats ok but don't assume your opinion is widespread.

I mean you're the only one saying that tbh. Everyone else agrees this content is barebones and repetitive

[Jojoya]

Everyone else

I don't think this means what you think it means.

As for repetitive, all PvE content is repetitive in the end. Most players get bored once they've it repeated more than they want.

[sindriiisgaming]

I don't think this means what you think it means.

As for repetitive, all PvE content is repetitive in the end. Most players get bored once they've it repeated more than they want.

You are wrong. I enjoy dungeons. I enjoy deep dungeons A LOT. I enjoy variant dungeons a lot. I loved going through them several times to complete the achievements to grab an easy mount. This post is about how YOU feel and thats ok but don't assume your opinion is widespread.

i mean if this is kind of content you want in the game and arent willing to hear out any kind of criticism of it or players ways to innovate it, then the problem is never going to change and the game will continue to bleed players... so for the very health of the game it's better to talk about these things instead of instantly shutting them down without even offering a few peices of construction yourself..

[KuroMaboroshi]

If dungeons remain as braindead as they are, which they have to be if they are not to gate even the worst imaginable players from progressing through MSQ, then I'd rather they remain linear and short. With absolutely zero difficulty, they are boring either way, so might as well get it over with as fast as possible.

The only solution would be to remove the dungeons from MSQ and have them be their own separate content, the same way variant and criterion dungeons are (and lo and behold, they are way more interesting than normal dungeons - just as little staying power, but way more enjoyable while doing them initially).

Honestly, I also wouldn't mind seeing normal dungeons removed entirely and replaced with more trials and raids, criterion dungeons, or more exploration content like Zadnor, etc.
But since "X differen dungeons" is way easier to advertise than any of those, I highly doubt they are ever going to vanish outright.