Would SCH's SB kit be "good enough" now?

[Renathras]

There's a general sort of "power/expectation creep" over time in life, such that things which were "good enough" or even praised at one point can become not good enough later.

We talk a lot about healer kits and SB in particular, and I've been consistent myself with supporting SCH and AST being returned to their SB forms (not WHM, because SB WHM sucked and EW WHM and even ShB WHM are both genuinely better, imo), but it does occur to me that it's worth examining SB SCH and asking, given the way most proposals now want a lot of interaction between abilities:

Would SB SCH really be "good enough" now?

Not "better than what we have"; would it actually be good to the point people wouldn't be complaining about it?

And I'm not asking this to prove any point. I'm just trying to remember all that the kit had and wondering if people would really REALLY be content with it or not.

Looking at the "Give it back" thread, what all would be the additions to the Job?

A second DoT with a different duration (I could be wrong, but was the Heavy and healing reduction still a part of it in SB? I thought they removed that before then, the Heavy at least...?), a ground effect dutifully laid out once per minute(?), Energy Drain being a MP regeneration tool, a short duration AOE movement tool (Miasma 2 technically had the DoT, but in single target, it was essentially an "improved Ruin 2" if you didn't use it too frequently, had the MP for it, and could be within near-melee range safely), and a DoT spread AF spender effect for Bio 2 and Miasma (Bio 1 was removed in 4.0, wasn't it?; sorry, just reading the tooltips from Ty's thread in General: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...lar-Edition%29 )

So second DoT with a slightly off-sync duration, "use on CD" 1 min ground effect, Aetherflow costing AOE spread for your two DoTs, short duration/range and MP expensive movement tool, and though not mentioned in that thread, ED having a MP Osmose effect...and that's about it?

Would that be sufficient to make people happy here?

EDIT:

I guess specifically what I'm wondering is would that be enough to make people happy? There's no kit interaction with the DoTs there (Faerie Gauge building or whatnot), just the one second DoT (2 if you count Miasma 2, but again, that's more used as a movement tool, at least in single target), and Shadow Flare that is kind of just Assize with more steps.

And I'm not saying this to disparage them - I remember thinking it was okay enough at the time - I'm more just wondering if that would make people happy when many of the proposed SCH changes here are...well...more complex than that. But if this would really make people happy, then cool. I remain on board with it being a good idea to bring back. I'm just curious if people would be satisfied with it or if they'd really be expecting/wanting more.

[OgruMogru]

Yeh but! Don't forget bane! Also quickened aetherflow [trait] and the ability to command fairies whilst casting a gcd. and the ability to gain aetherflow out of combat again.

[NobleWinter]

Yeh but! Don't forget bane! Also quickened aetherflow [trait] and the ability to command fairies whilst casting a gcd. and the ability to gain aetherflow out of combat again.

Quickened Aetherflow definitely made me incredibly happy. That trait and the fact we had two distinct fairies still. I loved the aoe cleanse from Selene and actually used her more often than Eos even though it was "inefficient". I like healing and throwing away Whispering Dawn in casual content meant I got to use Emergency Tactics more often to further break up the DPS monotony. The fact Shadow Flare and Sacred Soil couldn't be used simultaneously also added a bit more complexity to choosing which to use. Scholar felt like an aggressive healer with Quickened Aetherflow begging you to spend charges quickly. Dissipation was a real test of your reflexes trying to burn the extra three charges to refresh Aetherflow in 30 seconds instead of 45. I think the best feeling about Stormblood Scholar was that the skills were balanced evenly between DPS and healing so that you constantly used your entire kit. I wasn't always ignoring Fey Blessing, Protraction, Consolation, and Fey Union because my Warrior Tank didn't ever need any healing. Now part of that was the fact Tanks didn't have the insane amounts of support for themselves and the party back then but Scholar definitely had a more appropriate assortment of skills for the content. I can't speak for everyone but I would be happy with that kit. It wasn't perfect by any means but still way better than what we have now.

Oh and we could use Aetherflow outside of combat. I can't believe how much I miss that now.

[Sebazy]

Yeh but! Don't forget bane! Also quickened aetherflow [trait] and the ability to command fairies whilst casting a gcd. and the ability to gain aetherflow out of combat again.

++

Bane was the good stuff, that coupled with Miasma II and the Soil vs Flare gimmick would give SCH some genuinely interesting aoe gameplay again.

Dropping quickened Aetherflow was also utter madness on SE's part. Even if Aetherflow itself isn't where it used to be, this ability clearly and precisely rewarded good aggressive play and CD/resource usage as opposed to sitting on charges/key CDs and doing nothing with them which is a pretty standard hallmark of sub par play.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

SB's kit f-ing nailed it. Add at least a third of the tools we gained since then and you'd still have a formidable healer with a way better skill expression (quickened AF) and dps kit.

Oh and Faeries... casting Fae abilities while casting Broil or Miasma... god yes.

[Recon1o6]

SB sch at 4.3 was probably the best version of sch that ever came out (when it had miasma 2 and energy drain both returned).The only thing missing from it if memory serves was shadowflare which they unceremoniously removed. I did level it a fair bit but I was still loving my astro.

It still had some problems like dissipation killing the fairy and its launch state was appalling with energy drain's removal.

[ForsakenRoe]

Another case of 'what if they had just evolved the SB kit, instead of pruning everything in SHB', I guess

Like, obviously hotbar space would be an issue if this were the case but ignoring that for now, SB SCH with key massive additions like Expedient would be cool, especially with how SB hitboxes were not the size of Antarctica (the sprint speed would allow for greedier play from the tanks/melee, skill expression). I wouldn't count Seraph as a 'massive addition' per se because we lost Rouse to get it, it could have instead been an upgrade trait TO Rouse, and Consolation could have been added elsewhere in the kit. For example, as Fey Blessing (which definitely does not count as 'massive addition')

[Katish]

Another case of 'what if they had just evolved the SB kit, instead of pruning everything in SHB', I guess

Like, obviously hotbar space would be an issue if this were the case but ignoring that for now, SB SCH with key massive additions like Expedient would be cool, especially with how SB hitboxes were not the size of Antarctica (the sprint speed would allow for greedier play from the tanks/melee, skill expression). I wouldn't count Seraph as a 'massive addition' per se because we lost Rouse to get it, it could have instead been an upgrade trait TO Rouse, and Consolation could have been added elsewhere in the kit. For example, as Fey Blessing (which definitely does not count as 'massive addition')

Hotbar space is a square excuse. Not sure why we need to lose any skills that do unique (or repetitive) jobs (unless they are 100% redundant), just combine or condense healing skills into preexisting buttons that already exist so you have the one button that does both jobs which would help solve healing button bloat. Like for example, you can have the summon fairy icon become summon seraph when the fairy gauge is at some point...that way there's plenty of room for dps skills by having skills share the same button but under more of a conditional happening, and it makes for more of an interesting job design IMHO.

[Pandurah]

Just some quickthinks on how I'd like SCH adjusted going forward.

A mix of DoTs: Bio 1+2, Miasma 1+2, varying timers to allow for -thinking- in our damage "rotation". 30s /15s/ idk. I personally enjoyed having Aero with its 18s timer, which was helpful when moving/mechs vs. say, Ruin2. (Also keep Ruin 2).
Reintroduce Bane.
The return of Shadowflare. Keep the Soil vs. S'flare decision.
Aetherflow: Usable outside of combat. Regain 10% MP; bring back the Quickened Aetherflow trait.
Energy Drain: Now returns 5% MP, no HP. (the 'healing' it gives is pathetic).
Fairies: Give us back Selene with her abilities as they were... Silence/Cleanse/Fey Wind (maybe on the Wind, but my BLM friend and I liked it heh); Silence can be helpful in niche situations where there's no Phys Ranged, or they're asleep and we need a silence.
Allow us to order the fairy to use their abilities again whilst casting a GCD. This felt great and I will never forgive SE for taking that away.
Fey Wind: Reduce/half cooldown, make it cost Fairy gauge again. Tricky, here, as I like having another oGCD AoE heal, weak as it is.

I'm sure there's more that can be done with Seraph, I've seen some good ideas on the forums but can't quite remember right now.
This sounds like a lot, but it's only what we've had taken away from us since Stormblood. I like Recitation, Protraction, Expedient. Keep those as is. The only new thing I want added is a 120s? 180s? AoE Excog, but not sure about how others feel, maybe just a me thing.
Smol Qol: Chain Stratagem either a party buff or additive timer: I hate having it overwritten/overwriting in alliance raids, and roulettes.
Deployment Tactics: Spread the Catalyze effect, not Galvanize, so the unwitting Sage doesn't cancel out our big shields I'm not math-brained, so someone else can adjust the potencies for Cata vs. Galv.

I can think of others, too (bring back Leeches), but that sounds like a lot as it is.

Edit: P.S: I want Supervirus back

[ty_taurus]

The simplest thing you could do in regards to restoring scholar's identity would look something like this:

- Biolysis is adjusted to a 15 second duration.
- Miasma returns and upgrades into "Miasmolysis" and is a hardcast DoT with a 30 second duration.
- Deployment Tactics spreads Biolysis and Miasmolysis DoTs to nearby enemies in PVP fashion, taking the place of Bane without adding any buttons. DT's cooldown is adjusted and is given charges.
- Shadow Flare returns as a GCD field spell that lasts 15 seconds and has a 55 second GCD cooldown.
- Ruin II is reworked and upgrades into a new spell that adopts Miasma II's role from Stormblood--being an AoE DoT with a 12 second duration that has a high initial potency, but also a high MP cost.
- Whispering Dawn, Fey Illumination, and Fey Blessing are merged into a single action that applies a regen and increased HP recovery buff. Brownie points if we return Selene and the HP recovery buff is granted by Eos while the magic damage mitigation is granted by Selene.
- Aetherpact is no longer set to the hotbar and instead replaces Summon Eos while your pet is summoned.

The above changes would do a lot of good toward placating scholar players; however, it only really achieves restoring scholar to what it used to be. It'll just feel like we went back to the high point, but that the job has not really evolved or grown since that point.

Ideally, Dawntrail should try and shake up the combat system in some way, similar to how past expansions had, and the healers should instead be revamped to compliment that new environment. I want to see how scholar should've looked by now if not by Dawntrail if it were designed properly by a team that was consciously aware of how healer gameplay interacts with encounter design and made to be fun in all environments in this game.